i only wish i could of got to mine earlier, its done 160,000 miles but totally runs perfect in every way, so i just hope that starting to protect the pump etc now has nipped it in the bud quick enough so to speak, its certainly starting to feel smoother ive done nearly a tankfull so far

DiscoGeorge wrote:

apples24

using a fully synthetic 2sO is overkill. If your rig is fitted with CRD and a particle filter, then use a semi-synthetic JASO-FC compliant 2sO such as Liqui Moly 1052.

If however your rig is older technology then any 2sO conforming to at least Jaso-FB can be used.

Hello, George!

I don't think I fully understand why fully synthetic oil is overkill? In http://www.7thgear.net/7thGear/Portals/0/2...0specs.pdf it says that between FD and FC standards the difference is the detergent feature only, so...the same lubricity and ash. Or isn't?

Thanks!

its overkill because it costs more, no need to spend the extra i presume

The comparison was between FB and FC, not FC and FD.
FC, as said in the document, has a lower exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking and therefore is more suitable for DPF equipped vehicles.

trl wrote:

DiscoGeorge wrote:

apples24

using a fully synthetic 2sO is overkill. If your rig is fitted with CRD and a particle filter, then use a semi-synthetic JASO-FC compliant 2sO such as Liqui Moly 1052.

If however your rig is older technology then any 2sO conforming to at least Jaso-FB can be used.

Hello, George!

I don't think I fully understand why fully synthetic oil is overkill? In http://www.7thgear.net/7thGear/Portals/0/2...0specs.pdf it says that between FD and FC standards the difference is the detergent feature only, so...the same lubricity and ash. Or isn't?

Thanks!

Capito...!

Thank you all!

I'm using JASO-FC now, but I don't have DPF, so...maybe I'll choose a JASO-FB oil in the future.

BTW, the engine really sounds OK after this "treatment" with 2sO, so...thanks again. I've tested it on 1.5dci from RENAULT and 2.0tdi from VW and both engines and injection systems sounds less noisy.

Boxer wrote:

When's the thread coming back Martin? Looking forward to disco george's photos.

Hi guys

now as awaited by some of you herewith the first photographs. Due to unforseen work circumstances I am heading back to Europe day after tomorrow, so the bulk of the pics will have to wait until after my return on 16 Feb.

I have put together some pics of injectors from two different engines.

a) A 300Tdi with some 255000km. Injectors were replaced at 210000km (when I bought the car), with the exception of No. 2 injector at the time. The idea was to monitor this injector for some 5000km, after which time No. 2 was also replaced.

Pay close attention to radical reduction of carbon deposits around the spray ports. This was over only 5000km.

b) an injector from an MB OM617 diesel engine. Now this is a pre-chamber diesel. these motors are famous for some fairly adventurous carbon buid ups. The 5 injectors were removed after 250'000km and checked for spray pattern and opening pressures. All five were good for further use.


Both engines have been run by myself with YF's famours 1:200 concoction formula

I would suggest, if you would like to comment on this, that only forum members with a thorough understanding of the diesel operational principle do so, to prevent confusion.

Please remember, there is a fundamental difference between a lubricating (heavy) oil and a fuel (light) oil.

Differences are mainly centered around their relevant propensity for carbon build up and ignitability (cetane).

The pictures do not need to be explained further, as it is most evident, that carbon build up has been dealt with. In the case of the OM617 injector, 250'000km is 2.5 times the normal life span of such injectors. Beyond 100000km they normally develop the famous diesel knock.

Now diesel knock is nothing else but a n accoustic manifestation of an incomplete combustion. This can have various reasons:

1. Incorrect diesel pump timing

2. Water in the diesel

3. Worn out injector needles

4. Cetane rating too low

etc.

Now here are the pics:

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

As I've tried to clarify number of times, there are two different things/processes:

1. Combustion
2. Lubrication

1. Combustion
You've shown us the results of a better combustion because of the 2sO addition.
We already agreed, and the pictures confirms it, that for combustion the 2sO is OK and good.
So case closed, I, for one, am not interested anymore in carbon deposits (after burn) on injectors.
Thank you very much for the pictures.

2. Lubrication
Now I'd like to see if it's also good for lubrication.
Therefore, do you have some "before" and "after" pictures of high pressure pump(s) internals for example?
Something that it will show the advantages of using 2sO on lubrication process?

Thank you!

alex_pescaru wrote:

As I've tried to clarify number of times, there are two different things/processes:

1. Combustion
2. Lubrication

1. Combustion
You've shown us the results of a better combustion because of the 2sO addition.
We already agreed, and the pictures confirms it, that for combustion the 2sO is OK and good.
So case closed, I, for one, am not interested anymore in carbon deposits (after burn) on injectors.
Thank you very much for the pictures.

2. Lubrication
Now I'd like to see if it's also good for lubrication.
Therefore, do you have some "before" and "after" pictures of high pressure pump(s) internals for example?
Something that it will show the advantages of using 2sO on lubrication process?

Thank you!

Dave wrote:

Discogeorge,

Could you confirm the MY of the engines that these parts have come from

Hi Dave

the Disco injectors are from a 1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi "VA" series

The MB OM617 injectors are from a 1978 300D.

I have used those two examples as they highlight not only the carbon issue but also are a case in point for the lubrication side of the discussion, as both are entirely mechanical injectors. No Piezo Electric or solenoid parts whatsoever.  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

DiscoGeorge wrote:

I have used those two examples as they highlight not only the carbon issue but also are a case in point for the lubrication side of the discussion, as both are entirely mechanical injectors. No Piezo Electric or solenoid parts whatsoever.

Nevertheless, we still wait for a (visual) comparison which will show that the lubrication is improved.
You won't get away so easily after you've excited us so much...
If you are so centered on injectors then take them apart and show us, by comparison, their internals on one used with 2sO and one used without 2sO.
Lube is the key word now...
Thank you!

PS: Those injectors, being so old, they've worked, most part of their life, with fuels that had sulphur, so the lube was properly. So the statement above has little relevance.

alex_pescaru wrote:

PS: Those injectors, being so old, they've worked, most part of their life, with fuels that had sulphur, so the lube was properly. So the statement above has little relevance.

I will accept any photos that can prove the difference in lubrication between using and not using 2sO.

What I've tried to say is that we should consider components no older than the moment when the ULSD was introduced, because before that point in time the fuel has proper lubricity.

Not to mention the fact that those injectors which DG is talking about have completelly different tolerances than CR injectors. The old mechanical ones work at max. 200 bars while CR injectors work at up to 2000 bars system pressures. Almost 10 times more. Which ones do you think that are more affected by the lack of lubricity and will wear quickly?

DG,

Do you have photos from modern vehicles, i.e. after 1998
I know that vehicles pre 1998 relied on the sulphur in diesel for lubrication, so adding 2T oil will have lubricating benefits for these vehicles when using today's ULSD fuel, info relating to this is all over the internet.

I also know from searching the web that post 1998, car manufacturers have taken into account the ULSD fuel now used and designed the pumps and injectors with this fuel in mind.

Now that more info/evidence is forthcoming, perhaps you can see where I coming from and hence the need for more info relating to modern engines and fuel. ______________________
2011 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8
2012 FL2 SD4 Auto HSE
2013 Kawasaki Versys 650

I believe semi synthetic FC was mentioned in the original post, that is what I use anyway.  MY2014 SD4 XS
Ipanema Sand

MY10 TD4-e GS Manual
Lago Grey Now retired after 8 trouble free years