AT1963 wrote:

How long do you need to keep a EV to offset the environmental cost of production?

Under 10,000 miles is the break even point for a family hatchback, when compared against a fossil fuel burning equivalent, after which time the EV is many times less polluting, which is something a fossil fuel car can never be.  Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate. The family car.
2009 Rimini Red SE TD4. Gone.
2006 Tonga Green i6 HSE. Gone.
Audi A5 convertible, my daily driver.
1972 Hillman Avenger GT, the project.

Quote:

I've often wondered if the EV lack of range could be solved by towing a small generator/battery trailer behind the car.

Hmm not sure that's really addressing the problem? Landrover - turning owners into mechanics since 1948

2014 Orkney grey Freelander SD4 GS.
2004 Zambezi silver Discovery 2 Td5 (Gone)
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IanMetro wrote:

I've often wondered if the EV lack of range could be solved by towing a small generator/battery trailer behind the car........................

Nodge68 wrote:

AT1963 wrote:

How long do you need to keep a EV to offset the environmental cost of production?

Under 10,000 miles is the break even point for a family hatchback, when compared against a fossil fuel burning equivalent, after which time the EV is many times less polluting, which is something a fossil fuel car can never be.

Yes there are lies, damn lies and statistics.🙂 MY 09 GS manual in Lago Grey, Wood Co arm rest and side bumper strips - now sold.

MY 15 SD4 SE Auto Orkney Grey with colour coded Bumper Door Mouldings

Andy131 wrote:

Nodge68 wrote:

AT1963 wrote:

How long do you need to keep a EV to offset the environmental cost of production?

Under 10,000 miles is the break even point for a family hatchback, when compared against a fossil fuel burning equivalent, after which time the EV is many times less polluting, which is something a fossil fuel car can never be.

Be careful with the figures, does depend on how the electricity is generated (Europe vs UK vs USA vs Norway), it does depend on how you calculate the CO2 (eg mined lithium, or lithium that is bought in as a metal), it does depend on how long the vehicle is destined to operate before it is replaced.

I deal in statistics on a daily basis, and you can prove any theory even from the same set of figures. Decide the starting point, decide the end point and discard any that are outside your "norm", remembering that the start point of "your data" need not be the start point of the data as a whole.

For sure statistics can be twisted and manipulated to show what the person manipulating them wants them to show

Unfortunately most of the manipulation is done by people who are anti EV
The favourite is just using tail pipe emissions and ignoring all the emissions from drilling refining and transporting the oil
But then including everything when looking at the other side
The fact of it is the EV's use a chunk more energy to make but after that even with the dirtiest electricity in Europe (Germany) they will be much cleaner
Are they emission free no not at all are they better yes
We don't need to just look at co2 either all the particulates and oxides of nitrogen are seriously harmful to our health
Electrification of cars makes sense
Comercial and off highway vehicles less so at the moment but as technology improves then the case for those will be more compelling
The biggest problem we have is legacy manufacturers kicking against it and milking Internal combustion for as long as they can making just enough(to meet obligations for fleet avarsge co2 emmisions) and not very compelling EV's
We all scream they are too expensive but they don't need to be
Tesla make a gross margin of over 30% on the model 3 the second best selling car last year
Vauxhall make between 2.4 and 8% on the no.1 seller the corsa
Plenty of margin to work on when supply starts to meet demand

Call me a skeptic, but I have lost count of the number of times we have been asked to design a set of experiments to prove a point by a customer, rather than the truth.

The cop26 diesel generate recharge is a myth, either the cars didnt need a lot of charging or the supplied lots to ensure there were always charged cars available At work
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"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

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The reason i ask is due to car buying behaviour....and also the industries take on new car buying (the second influences the first!) and in particular the tendency to buy or renew a car every 3 years (also consider leasing here).
So the question will be:
is it the case that the first person to buy a brand new EV will not probably see the supposed green benefit of purchasing such a vehicle?
If this is the case to be more green (if that is the correct expression) you should buy second hand and at least 2-3yrs old

Anyway...what is the answer to the above??

Around 16k miles is the accepted non manipulated figure for an EV to become greener than the same car built as an ICE (XC40)
This can and will get to be a shorter amount of miles as the grid gets cleaner as it continually does and as manufacturing of EVs gets better
But that figure is probably the best un agenda manipulated one that you can use

Thank you pinhead.
I think the marketing does not lead you to this conclusion and many who will buy an EV will assume they are totally green at the first start of the vehicle
Also, a truer description for buyers would be the need to probably not change the vehicle every 3 yrs as this encourages the increased production which is (as we know) not very green.

Personally i think the over focus on EVs is distracting and not giving the full picture to the public.

1. Less single use plastic
2. Eat less meat
3. Plant more trees
4. Don't buy new clothes all the time (you should see the water usage and colour dyes used in this..its Hugh!)
5. Significantly reduce air travel
6. Buy food locally

These will help as much as buying an EV!!

I would put not having more than 2 children far higher than any of your 6 but do not say that to the greens. Silver 2009 HSE

or eat chicken from a farm that utilises solar, biomass heating and gshp heating, ... just saying


As an industry we arnt subject to carbon footprint monitoring yet, but it wont be long. difficult to reduce the carbon footprint of soya for chicken feed, we cant not use it but cant grow it in the UK At work
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"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

AT1963 wrote:

The reason i ask is due to car buying behaviour....and also the industries take on new car buying (the second influences the first!) and in particular the tendency to buy or renew a car every 3 years (also consider leasing here).
So the question will be:
is it the case that the first person to buy a brand new EV will not probably see the supposed green benefit of purchasing such a vehicle?
If this is the case to be more green (if that is the correct expression) you should buy second hand and at least 2-3yrs old

Anyway...what is the answer to the above??

I agree with GlynnB-humans and the rate we are breeding is by far the biggest problem facing the planet. Reducing the global population should be the Number 1 priority for all government’s across the world but would be a hard sell and not a vote winner!! Car emissions do play a role, but ultimately they are nowhere near as polluting as producing another human being.

One of the problems is the old Beta-Max and VHS quandary. Which technology will be more widely accepted - not necessarily the cheapest or the best. Beta-max gave better quality, but the shops that you hired the tapes from in the UK had a better selection of VHS.
Back the wrong one and you end up with an expensive ornament.

EVs are developing at a pace, so in theory the price will come down and the expensive car that you bought 3-5 years ago has a huge depreciation as the new replacement for it is actually cheaper than the old one, and who is going to pay more (or only slightly less) for an older car with older technology, and shorter range?

Lead acid gave way to lithium and it was a game changer for EVs, if a new battery technology comes along (it needs to) and we get lighter batteries, or greater range, it is going to make the current generation of EVs look like the horse and cart.

Point is we are very early in the game, current crop of EVs are still bought by early adopters, who are happy to take the risk to be the first kids with the new toys - often it works, but not always.

Hands up all those that have a Beta-Max or VHS player - cheap hard drives have made them obsolete. Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner