Very good point Andy
Where I will pull you up about being left with an obsolete item like a betamax is that is technically only possible with hydrogen that so may claim to be the future as we all have a plug socket in our house and can charge a battery up
Lithium ion is a very broad term for the batterys used there are very many different chemistry in use and they all display different abilities some may have much better energy density but a low cycle life or a very slow charge rate without damage some will be able to last for thousands of cycles but be poor on energy density
This is where the technology is improving month on month a model 3 battery will last double the no. Of cycles my 2016 model S battery will with a higher charge rate too
It's moving forward fast
I would also say we are past the early adopter stage now demand for elecic cars is massive but they are supply constrained a bloke at work who swapped his car last year was all set for a change to electric he buckled at the cost but the gap is getting smaller and smaller
In some cases there is no gap anymore

My position on hydrogen is that it will have a roll to play but will be a much more expensive option than battery power
It currently takes double the amount of electricity to make enough green hydrogen to travel 1 Mile than it would take to travel that distance in an BEV
So we would need much more generating capacity just to do the same thing
It will how ever have a place where energy density is a huge requirement and in off grid locations
Hydrogen is being pushed by the fossil fuel industry as it can also be created cheaply as a byproduct and they want to keep that channel open this is often referred to as blue hydrogen

So how do you buy these ever evolving technologies
It all depends on your risk appetite
Many now 2 year old model 3s are selling for more than they were new but we know the used market is currently skewed with a lack of supply and this is not going to be the case forever
The tools are there to cover this now
You can lease a car and fix your costs
Take a gamble on final value and PCP but this will cost more if you end up just handing it back
Or you can buy it outright or loan
It all depends how you feel many on the tesla group who are well healed still lease and invest their money
It's a personal decision

Hydrogen will in my opinion have a roll to play. Spent 2 years doing very little else but testing and modifying them at work. They like to be started and kept running, so your average shopping trolley is not a good use, but they work well as a hybrid, so for example a bus that has a fuel cell would actually be a BEV with a fuel cell running constantly in the background charging the battery.
HGVs are another good use because of the long runs.

This leaves me with a problem, I am relying on the idea that diesel will always be available for my car because heavy transport needs it, if they go hydrogen then cheap readily available diesel will be a thing of the past. Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

I think that hydrogen will pay a bigger part in the future than we now think.

Government influencers like JCB are betting heavily on hydrogen being the future for heavy machinery and transport, both in using and supply.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59107805

PS we don't always get it right, my Great-Grandfather made the effort of re-training from general foundry engineering to become a Steam Waggon Mechanic, - he must have thought it was the thing of the future. FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 77k+ miles) (MY2015)
Metro in its 11th Year of (Extended) LR Warranty / Full LR Service History
(Expensive, but Trouble/Worry free - hopefully?)

Hydrogen seems a likely solution for big off road machines , tractors diggers etc

You can buy a tractor that runs in methane, produced on farm from manure.
Although the few test models out on farms use bottled methane as purifing it on farm isnt quite there yet

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.t...AGaxnEmCT3 At work
At home

"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

The other concern i have is towing with an EV.
Today i did two 30 mile round trips with an 8ft ifor trailer full of ash logs and tomorrow a trip to the tip with the trailer and Friday taking compact tractor to local equine yard to level the school and then that same day another round trip delivering wood.
I don't feel this would suit an EV but maybe I'm wrong.
The freelander took it all in its stride

EV's have bags of torque from the moment you start rolling, which is ideal for towing.

EV's leave your house with a full tank each morning.

Not seeing too much of an issue with the use you just described. Current driveway contents:
2021 V60 Cross Country B5
2009 FL2 dog bus and shooting wagon

On Order: 2023 Fisker Ocean Ultra - deposit paid.

Thanks noDosh
is anyone on here towing with an EV?

I dont tow with an E V yet but I will soon
My model S is not type approved for towing in Europe so I cannot use it
The next one will definitely be
The torque delivery is fantastic and towing will be a pleasure I am a farmer so I know what towing is all about
There are quite a few owners on the tesla owners group who tow with the model X and it seems from reports that its incredibly capable some have toured Europe with big twin axle vans
Range takes a huge hit being cut in the worst cases in half it seems that heavy aerodynamic shapes loose less than light brick shapes
When you think of E V usage patterns think one day at a time rather than the week ahead
Even the biggest battery cars can be topped up over night while you sleep on a single phase domestic supply so as long as you can get through the day then you are fine

A possible ev towing solution is a battey powered axle on trailer/caravan, extending range.

The trailer can be parked outside house when not being towed utilising the battery like a powerwall At work
At home

"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

I just don't see any point in battery operated cars, when I already have two perfectly good old diesel cars.

But one day you won't have two perfectly good ones. Eventually they will fail to the extent that they cannot be safely or economically repaired.

Nobody is forcing you to rush out tomorrow and spend £50k on a Tesla. Current driveway contents:
2021 V60 Cross Country B5
2009 FL2 dog bus and shooting wagon

On Order: 2023 Fisker Ocean Ultra - deposit paid.

Problem is the govt is forcing me to buy a milk float, they have banned the sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2035. Even worse I can only buy a car that totally over complicates things by being part petrol and part milk float from 2030. Diesel isn't even on the cards.


maybe I'm biased. decades spent being a service engineer on forklifts.
You want reliability - buy diesel
Have to use it inside occasionally - buy LPG - usually a petrol engine running on gas.
You don't need reliability and want to hide the running costs / it lives inside - buy electric - although you can buy three when you need two and use the third for spares.
You want to have unreliable and no-one can fix it - by a diesel electric hybrid - very good when they work.[/u] Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

It`s interesting to see both camps of thought with some" creative" reasoning for and against EV`s. I normally drive everywhere and I was out my car the other day with a rare walk along a main road to visit an address and had the "pleasure"of breathing in exhaust fumes from the passing traffic including some older diesels where you could taste the fumes as they drove past. I would not like to think what it would do to anyones long term health if they had to walk or cycle along that road to work or school everyday. My journey to work is a 10mile round trip which is not great use of a diesel so when I was changing my D4 last year (The WBAC price was too good to pass up!) I decided to give a hybrid a go. I spent the same money as I would have spent on another D4 or RRS.
The move for me has been the right one I think. I can get to work all week without it costing me a penny in fuel and I can charge it at work from a normal wall socket and only need to charge it at home at the weekend which costs about 70p in lecky. I have gone from a monthly fuel bill of around £180-£200 to spending £65 on filling up which normally lasts me all month. Still have four wheel drive and love coming out to a preheated car (inc seat and steering wheel) in the cold mornings. The technology seems to work very well and the car changes from battery to ICE seemlessly when in use. When in electric mode it drives just like a normal petrol car and will creep forward at the lights when you take your foot of the brake.
In the grand scheme of things I`m probably making very little difference but at least when I drive along the road that I was walking on I`m not adding to the pollution that pedestrians are breathing in as I drive past!
(Oh and my milkfloat will do 0-60MPh in 5.2 seconds when I`m feeling the need for speed!)

Andy131 wrote:

Problem is the govt is forcing me to buy a milk float, they have banned the sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2035. Even worse I can only buy a car that totally over complicates things by being part petrol and part milk float from 2030. Diesel isn't even on the cards.


maybe I'm biased. decades spent being a service engineer on forklifts.
You want reliability - buy diesel
Have to use it inside occasionally - buy LPG - usually a petrol engine running on gas.
You don't need reliability and want to hide the running costs / it lives inside - buy electric - although you can buy three when you need two and use the third for spares.
You want to have unreliable and no-one can fix it - by a diesel electric hybrid - very good when they work.[/u]

So "The Government" - a mechanism broadly designed for protecting the population from its worst excesses (yeah, right), will force you into a hybrid in 8 years time. They will then drag you, screaming, from your cozy corner in the pub to buy a full BEV in 13 years time.

The Freelander 2 was launched in 2007. Who would have imagined such a vehicle for comfort, capability or price in 1999? Or in 1994? In 1994 we were queuing up to buy these (I know, because I was selling them at the time)



As for "milk float" they don't even share the same battery chemistry. You may as well describe your FL2 as a steam engine.

Petrol Hybrids have been available in the UK for a number of years now with few reports of issues (ignore the Full Fat Range Rover debacle, that was just Land Rover being Land Rover).

Full BEV has similarly been here for some time. There has been some dross, but you can't deny the quality of the products now pouring out from across China, Europe and the US.

Your argument is wholly based on emotion and a reluctance to let go of the familiar. I understand that, change can be frightening if you see folk run from it screaming "Different! Different!"

I wonder how many people ran away from Tharg when he stood there by a blazing fire, cooking his kill for the day. I bet the sweet smell of tasty roast meat won them over in the end though. So it shall be with electric. Once you taste it, you'll want more. Current driveway contents:
2021 V60 Cross Country B5
2009 FL2 dog bus and shooting wagon

On Order: 2023 Fisker Ocean Ultra - deposit paid.

Electric drive is truly wonderful, smooth responsive quiet, Ideally batteries do need to be lighter and have more capacity. but for many drivers the capacity available now is ample.

Future people will look back on ICE cars as a period of pollution and inefficiency, just as we now look back on steam engines and wonder how the owners/operators managed. At work
At home

"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race