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Home > Technical > 2SO - 2 Stroke oil and Diesel
Who is using 2 Stroke Oil
Yes - and my FL is quieter
36%
 36%  [54]
Yes - But I cannot tell if my FL is quieter
10%
 10%  [15]
Yes - No, It is not quieter
2%
 2%  [3]
No - I am not using 2 Stroke oil
51%
 51%  [75]
Total Votes: 147

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alex_pescaru



Member Since: 12 Mar 2009
Location: RO
Posts: 4642

dr. tom wrote:
....Does the study mention this? No, Alex, it does not explicit mention it but it implies it!
That 2SO will increase the HFRR value of fuel is common knowledge and is not subject to any further scientific research.


Thank you for the clarification...
In my opinion, something is becoming common knowledge when many things have been said, done and experimented on it.
But, strangely, until now, not a single study (that we know about it), has been done on this 2SO addition, for diesel HP pumps lubrication purposes...
Ah, sorry, some have implied it.... Very Happy No offence! Thumbs Up

PS: More of that, on many 2SO bottles I've seen, there is a clear statement like this: "Do not use as fuel or add to diesel!"... I wonder why, if the contrary is common knowledge without the need for further research...

PPS: I yearn for the day when somebody will hit me in the head with a study that proves that the 2SO is good for lubrication purposes in the particular case of a high pressure diesel injection pump... Very Happy

But/or as BossBob has said: "Whether it has any effect in the hp fuel pump (good or bad) of a diesel we won't know until someone strips down a couple of comparably used engines that have and have not used 2 stroke oil."

Post #153617 4th Sep 2012 7:08 pm
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athelstan



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Reality
Posts: 2658

Indeed Alex.
What we have seenu is only that 2SO has been used as a lubricant very successfully when used in its pure state undiluted by fuel on SILK motorcycle, but, we have seen no evidence of what or if something happens to 2SO when it is mixed with a fuel before it gets to a lift pump, HP pump or injectors.

Does the dilution of the 2SO in those circumstances negate the proven lubrication capabilities as already discussed Question

Post #153628 4th Sep 2012 7:40 pm
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dr. tom



Member Since: 28 Aug 2012
Location: Duesseldorf/NRW
Posts: 15

Germany 2012 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Stornoway Grey

Let us put science aside and apply common sense:
as athelstan has in detail explained, 2SO will lubricate mechanical components and than burn as a mixture of petrol and 2SO.
Adding the dosis of 2SO to the diesel will better the lubrication properties by the factor x and will for sure not decrease the lubrication. The mixture of diesel and 2SO will burn - both are made to burn in comparison to normal engine oil, where burning is a undesired process and to be avoided.
Personally I cannot see any reason - scientifically proven or not - to doubt the positive impact of adding the dosis of 2SO to the diesel to assist in the tribological effect.

Post #153686 5th Sep 2012 8:14 am
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IanH



Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: Stirling
Posts: 137

Scotland 2013 Freelander 2 TD4 XS Manual Santorini Black

Well there's lots of tech debate going on, but I thought I'd now feedback into the forum as I've been adding TSO to my GS since May. I'm not sure that it has made the car run smoother or quieter but, but there has been no adverse effects and my MPG has gone from an average of 38.6 to 40.5. So even given any inaccuracy re the on board computer (which has been the subject of other threads on here) fuel economy seems to be a definite benefit!

Post #153710 5th Sep 2012 9:24 am
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alex_pescaru



Member Since: 12 Mar 2009
Location: RO
Posts: 4642

dr. tom wrote:
Personally I cannot see any reason - scientifically proven or not - to doubt the positive impact of adding the dosis of 2SO to the diesel to assist in the tribological effect.

Totally agree with you. From engineering point of view, all OK.
BUT...
I will start with a parallel thinking...

We know that today engines are made with tighter and tighter tolerances. The spaces/tolerances are narrower and narrower.
Therefore the need for a thinner and thinner motor oil. A 0W30 or even 0W20 type of oil is not so special nowadays. A thinner oil will mean that the viscosity of that oil is lower than others.
If you run a modern engine with an old oil like 20W50 will certainly mean a slow destruction of that engine because there will be areas in that engine where a thick oil like 20W50 will not penetrate.

Now moving ahead and thinking of diesel and 2SO.

A 2SO is much, much thicker, with a greater viscosity, that the diesel fuel.
Imagine that a device (the HP pump) that generates 2000+ bars of pressure, has to have very tight tolerances.
How thickening the diesel fuel with 2SO will affect the HP pump?
I realize that the diesel thickening with temperature will be much greater, but again, the 2SO is also thickening with temperature and the question remain...
More of that it raises another one: how about adding 2SO to diesel in below 0 temperatures?

Post #153713 5th Sep 2012 9:55 am
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Walenut



Member Since: 17 Jun 2012
Location: Midlands
Posts: 116

United Kingdom 2010 Freelander 2 TD4_e XS Manual Lago Grey

IanH wrote:
Well there's lots of tech debate going on, but I thought I'd now feedback into the forum as I've been adding TSO to my GS since May. I'm not sure that it has made the car run smoother or quieter but, but there has been no adverse effects and my MPG has gone from an average of 38.6 to 40.5. So even given any inaccuracy re the on board computer (which has been the subject of other threads on here) fuel economy seems to be a definite benefit!


I would second this and there have been other similar observations throughout this topic, I have seen an improvement in my MPG particularly urban which I mainly do, which to be honest I was quite surprised about because I was slightly dismissive, as when I first read the comments I didn't take that much notice because I was mainly concentrating of the protection element.

I wounder if the TSO is improving the calorific value of the fuel and improving combustion giving a better burn, an interesting debate I think and how this might effect the engine?

Post #155405 22nd Sep 2012 7:50 am
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oldgeezer



Member Since: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1302

United Kingdom 2013 Freelander 2 TD4 GS Manual Baltic Blue

The diagnostic equipment i have allows me to read lots of live data.

I ran my wife's TDCI up hot and was reading injector rail pressure and injector fuel adjustment percentages then added 2 stroke to the tank whilst running.

In 20 mins the fuel pressure never varied or the correction percentages telling me that the oil did not increase fuel pressure, but also need to bear in mind that the fuel rail pressure is regulated.

The MPG improved around 3-4mpg and its so much quieter and smooth.

Haven't done the FR2 as don't want to give LR any excuse to bail out of any issues.

Post #155410 22nd Sep 2012 8:50 am
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DiscoGeorge



Member Since: 20 Nov 2010
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 193

South Africa 

Hi guys

haven't dropped in here for a while.

I see you guys are still debating in circles re: the 2sO addition to diesel. Had a good chuckle reading some of the more recent comments.

Well on the Disco3 forum the penny has dropped regarding the 2sO addition.

Had a long chat to one of the leading pump shop specialists in Johannesburg, discussing the eternal 2sO issue. He started laughing and had a good chuckle, when I told him what is being discussed on some of the continental LR and Merc forums.

His comments to me where, "you are absolutely right but I cannot propagate this, as it would severely restrict my work intake." But his next comment was priceless "Sure I use it on all my vehicles for many years already".

For those of you who want their systems to last: Use Jaso-FC compliant 2sO in a ratio of 1:200, i.e. 500ml of 2sO per 100 litres of diesel.

One of the best comments more recently in this thread was the one that questioned the viscosity change of diesel in regards to a possibility of negatively impacting on the tribological properites of the diesel. Or to put into plain words, that diesel spiked with 2sO would not be able to pass through the very small orifices of the CRD injectors. Rolling with laughter Rolling with laughter Rolling with laughter

Well I will pop in from time to time here. Those of you who would like more info, can send me a pm. Thumbs Up With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

Post #158102 20th Oct 2012 4:14 pm
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Dave



Member Since: 04 Jul 2007
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Scotland 2012 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Indus Silver

Come back to take a pop at other people have you Question ______________________
2011 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8
2012 FL2 SD4 Auto HSE
2013 Kawasaki Versys 650

Post #158115 20th Oct 2012 5:00 pm
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chicken george



Member Since: 05 Dec 2007
Location: N. Yorks
Posts: 13289

United Kingdom 2008 Freelander 2 TD4 XS Manual Santorini Black

<snip> what a Censored , hopefully hes gone off somewhere to needlessly charge his battery

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Post #158116 20th Oct 2012 5:07 pm
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DiscoGeorge



Member Since: 20 Nov 2010
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 193

South Africa 

Dave wrote:
Come back to take a pop at other people have you Question


Hi Dave

no - not at all.

But it is always amazing how one gets initially attacked, when coming up with an easy fix for a fairly wide spread problem. Once this then has then been accepted by the "fraternity", then all and sundry seem to have been propagating it all along.

Have a peep into the Disco3.co.uk forum then you will understand what I mean.

I don't take this personal in any way. In Europe few individuals have the opportunity to clock up high mileages like we do here in SA.

I do more km's in a month than the majority of europeans do in a year. So my observations are based on fact and not on fiction. With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff


Last edited by DiscoGeorge on 21st Oct 2012 6:59 am. Edited 1 time in total

Post #158126 20th Oct 2012 6:13 pm
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Dave



Member Since: 04 Jul 2007
Location: Somewhere Near You
Posts: 2666

Scotland 2012 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Indus Silver

I'm a member of all of Martin's forums, as my signature would suggest I've been working my way through all that LR make.

Just one for the record. I have a work colleague who has an Audi A4 diesel who has clocked up 288,000 miles in this car without the use of any adatives. That for me is enough proof that adatives aren't required or needed.

If you believe all that you preech then please continue to use that product in your engines/fuel. This is a subject that I have no doubt will be debated for a long time to come.

As a moderator all I ask is that you don't critisize/flame/insult or abuse others comments because they don't agree with what you say. Posts can/will be modified or deleted. That statement applies equally to everyone. ______________________
2011 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8
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Post #158133 20th Oct 2012 6:44 pm
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kaanage



Member Since: 25 Feb 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 29

Australia 

Here are some pictures and comments from a long time 2-stroke oil user in the US of his engine internals. It's pretty impressive.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3876027&postcount=26

Good to see you still around DiscoGeorge.

Post #158541 24th Oct 2012 11:27 am
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DiscoGeorge



Member Since: 20 Nov 2010
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 193

South Africa 

Hi kaanage

well that is what it is all about with this 2sO story. And here we only emphasize the auxiliary benefits over and above the increase in lubricity! Wink

The bottom line is actually quite simple:

1. It works

2. It saves money and downtime

3. On average lifespan of diesel components is extended by a factor 2 - 2.5 at least


And here some pics of the glow plugs that came out of my 300Tdi after some 250000km (they were burnt out).

Especially check how clean the shafts are. Normally they are full of carbon deposits and goo.

The glow plug on the extreme left is a brand new one, before fitting.

Click image to enlarge


Click image to enlarge


And kaanage nice to hear from you again from down under.

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated Mr. Green  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

Post #158618 24th Oct 2012 10:21 pm
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alex_pescaru



Member Since: 12 Mar 2009
Location: RO
Posts: 4642

Some facts, thanks to Toadshall:
https://www.freel2.com/gallery/albums/user...1-0848.pdf

Despite the fact that the paper doesn't point exactly to a specific additive, it still says:
Specific lubricity additives with carboxylic acid-, ester- and amide based chemistries can increase the lubricity in a variety of base fuels at a concentration of 200 ppm to meet the lubricity requirement according to EN590.

Interesting that, again, it says that biodiesel, in concentrations of 5% or more, is quite enough for satisfying lubricity issues.

They've also talk, besides High-Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR), about the High-Temperature Oscillating Machine (HiTOM).

The HiTOM (High-Temperature Oscillating Machine) has been designed by BOSCH to reproduce in a controlled environment the main contacts that are present in the drive of Common Rail pumps. The machine kinetics of the chosen machine element are tribological similar to the real conditions experienced in the high-pressure pump.

And a MAJOR thing, to say at least, at conclusions:

Therefore, the removal of sulphurised compounds is not the major reason for the loss of lubrication of ultra low sulphur diesel fuels. Shocked Shocked Shocked

Then, who is the culprit?....

Post #159018 28th Oct 2012 11:42 am
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