dunroof wrote:

The amount of deaths and injuries on our roads is appauling and it wont get better without people taking responsibility not only for their own driving, but that of others.

I would love the police to issue me with a blue light beacon, a ticket book and the authority to pull over every single driver that doesnt wear a seat belt, is on a mobile phone, has a headlight bulb out, a tailgate bulb out, a brake light bulb out, that parks in the disabled or kiddies bays at the supermarket when they are in their 20's and never had sex, parked on a double yellow, drives with fog lights on, drives with blue led's where the wiper washes nozzles should be, drives through a red light, turns without indicating, drives too close, drives too fast, hogs the middle lane on a motorway, drives at night with no lights on, drives with a trailer that has a different reg plate on, drives with the rear so dirty you cannot see their lights or reg plate. I could make the police an absolute fortune!!!!!  Now - 2017 BMW X3 M Sport Carbon Black
Gone - 2014 BMW X3 M Sport Space Grey, faultless!
Gone - 2011 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Bali Blue with xenons
Gone - 2008 Freelander 2 TD4 HSE Rimini Red with bodykit

Brian, you cant pick and choose what laws you think should apply to you and likewise where you think these laws are approppriate. I am one of the few that can remember when the speed limit was higher, although not a driver at that time. They raved about the number of lives it would save and it did, that said, I see your logic, but humans by nature will all have differing opinions and differing abilities. It applies for the young buck and his fandango Peugot 106, Miss Daisey in her Morris Minor and Joe Blogs, Plumber, speeding along in a 30 zone with his ear attached to a mobile, still belching stale alcohol after the night before. It's one rule for everyone and thats the only practical way to proceed.

It seems you are making your point on 'intentional' speeders of which no-one probably has an argument against, get them off the road and we are in agreement.
My scenario was driving in the city of Bristol, lost and leaning forward as you do looking for a friendly road sign. I was driving about 37mph in a 40 and missed the change in speed limit down to 30mph, immediately there was a flash and I was nabbed. My breaking of that speed limit was unintentional but in law there is no excuse, well there bloody well should be as I had a clean licence and ended up sitting in this centre with a load of bloody morons. How do I know they were morons? because the car park was full of Scoobys, clapped out bangers with 6" exhausts and so on.
I was tarred with the same brush as those chavs who will go out and do exactly the same again.
Because I made an unintentional mistake I don't need preaching to on how to drive in a responsible manner.

dunroof wrote:

It's one rule for everyone and thats the only practical way to proceed.

But that's my point (part of, anyway). It's ludicrous to have the same limits for a 19 y/o lad in a clapped out Corsa as someone in their 30s (say) in a brand new BMW or whatever. (Ignoring the fact that the 19 y/o would ignore the limits anyway). And it's silly to have the same limits in daylight on a dry day as at night in the rain.

Some of this could be implemented now (eg automatic variable speed limits depending on the weather a la the French) and some is now becoming possible with technological advances.

And much stricter MoTs and much better enforcement of tax and MoT and insurance requirements.

All of this would achieve better results than being draconian and thereby off EYorkshire and others. Brian

MY11 FL2 SD4 GS
Extras to same spec as XS apart from the Satnav, plus Xenons.
Ipenema Sand, Ebony.

Okay, a lot of people miss signs of various descriptions, be it speed limits, one way streets, stop lines etc. It could be claimed that a driver, on top of everything else, drove carelessly if they missed an obligatory sign. The arguement would be if you can't see a sign standing over 6' tall with a red circle, red trianlge or whatever, then would you have seen someone stepping off a kerb and into your path. Basically your full concentration wasn't on the driving. As a consequence, you get proscecuted for speeding, going up a one way street the wrong way, failing to stop at a stop line, when in honesty, there is evidence that you also drove carelessly or if you accept the arguement that it should maybe be a defence that it wasn't deliberate, then the careless charge would be more applicable. The punishment for that is a minimum of 3 points going to a disqualification and a maximum level 4 fine or 2k.

As for the course, it's an alternative to prosecution which can be refused.


I dont see why you should treat people differently depending on if they are a Chav or a 30 year old guy who has a family/mortgage. Equality in the eyes of the law is a basic concept and rightly so. Its up to our Courts to determine culpability and mitigation. If people dont want to take a fixed penalty, then they can have a full hearing, the choice is thiers.

As for having different speed limits according to weather conditions, remember the speed limit is the maximum and you should always drive according to the road conditions anyway. It might well be 30 is the limit, but to go round a corner at 30 would be reckless even tho' it was not over the limit. Likewise with thick fog and similar conditions. Do you really need a sign telling you the limit is lowered? Maybe you do.

As for insurance, tax and test certificates. It's all on the DVLA computer and all fed into the camera database or if a Cop does an owner check on a vehicle, they are linked, therefore if someone drives past a camera, car, cop, it will flag up. It's then down to if the particular Police Force/officer to decide to take action. Remember, these camera data bases also contain vehicles of known Drugs Dealers, Child Molesters, Restriction of Liberty Orders, Bailed Persons and anything else the Police decide to feed into it, so they might be pinging quite a lot and then they have to prioritise. I am not defending this situation, I have no affiliation to the Police, it's just working practices.

It's really a matter of compromise, as usual in England. The technology exists to automatically restrict all vehicles to the speed limit, but society isn't ready for that yet, it seems. The main reason we get upset is when the law is UNFAIR, like when the guy who gives you a parking ticket late in the afternoon tells his mate so that they can give you another one at 7.00 the following morning. Cameras are unfair because they don't give you the chance to argue your case. On the other hand they don't lie, and if you did it you did it. On the subject of missing a sign, and I've done it too, it can certainly be construed as careless driving - a favourite on the HGV test used to be "What was the last roadsign we passed?"

You can spout all the drivel you want, it makes no difference. There are drivers here that are responsible people that made an error and get to sit in a classroom with intentional thuggish drivers who will go straight out and do it all over again, and when they lose their licence will just pinch yours or my car and repeat the offence.

It's not about not accepting that we commited an offence, it's about being made to feel a like a criminal for a momentary lapse of concentration at these centres.

Your holier than thou attitude has just made me throw up my breakfast, and I'm done with this thread.

EDIT: No I'm not done with this thread.

Last edited by EYorkshire on 3rd Mar 2011 12:40 pm. Edited 1 time in total

[quote="EYorkshire"]
It's not about not accepting that we committed an offence, it's about being made to feel a like a criminal for a momentary lapse of concentration at these centres.

I am sorry but what a load of crap, i have seen to many " momentary lapses of concentration" turn into fatal Road Traffic collisions. Then all you hear from the offending driver is oh i just did this or just did that for a second. when you are behind the wheel of any vehicle on the road your TOTAL focus should be on the job of driving not on your mobile phone, what your doing tonight when you get home etc etc. I am sorry if i am ranting on but would anyone like to come with me next time i have to go to she a wife, husband,son or daughter and tell them there loved one has been kill on the roads by someones " momentary lapses of concentration"

[quote="lmorris4975"]

EYorkshire wrote:

It's not about not accepting that we committed an offence, it's about being made to feel a like a criminal for a momentary lapse of concentration at these centres.

I am sorry but what a load of crap, i have seen to many " momentary lapses of concentration" turn into fatal Road Traffic collisions. Then all you hear from the offending driver is oh i just did this or just did that for a second. when you are behind the wheel of any vehicle on the road your TOTAL focus should be on the job of driving not on your mobile phone, what your doing tonight when you get home etc etc. I am sorry if i am ranting on but would anyone like to come with me next time i have to go to she a wife, husband,son or daughter and tell them there loved one has been kill on the roads by someones " momentary lapses of concentration"

Got to say in my opinion its nothing to do with safety, and all to do with revenue.
The technology exsists to enforce speed on cars, even variable if required, but then there would be no fines. Don't put petrol in a diesel. They don't run well.

[quote="BrianAbbott"]

lmorris4975 wrote:

EYorkshire wrote:

It's not about not accepting that we committed an offence, it's about being made to feel a like a criminal for a momentary lapse of concentration at these centres.

I am sorry but what a load of crap, i have seen to many " momentary lapses of concentration" turn into fatal Road Traffic collisions. Then all you hear from the offending driver is oh i just did this or just did that for a second. when you are behind the wheel of any vehicle on the road your TOTAL focus should be on the job of driving not on your mobile phone, what your doing tonight when you get home etc etc. I am sorry if i am ranting on but would anyone like to come with me next time i have to go to she a wife, husband,son or daughter and tell them there loved one has been kill on the roads by someones " momentary lapses of concentration"

Do you have the radio on in your car?

I take it from your post that you're copper? Does your control room contact you when you're in the car?

Quote:

when you are behind the wheel of any vehicle on the road your TOTAL focus should be on the job of driving not on your mobile phone

Quote:

Yes and i know what your getting at, the system we use is like a hands free system so no need to take my hands/eyes off the road.

I'm sorry, but that is crap, one minute you say "TOTAL focus" should be employed and the next you say "Hands Free" is acceptable. Many senior police officers and Safety experts have publicly stated that even using "Hands Free" causes the brain to lose concentration, unless you coppers are different to the rest of us and are superhuman.

There are a myriad of things to lose your concentration on when driving, advertising signs in your face, roundabouts with sponsored signs for council revenue, direction signs painted on roads when they are covered by cars Police presence that make all cars brake even when they are well within the speed limit causing a knock on effect till the one further back has to do an Emergency stop, and the list goes on.

So no, it is impossible to be truly 100% focused on anything that we try to do simply because the human brain is prone to distraction.

lmorris4975 wrote:

Yes and i know what your getting at, the system we use is like a hands free system so no need to take my hands/eyes off the road.
And the enforcement of traffic laws has NOTHING AT ALL to do with getting cash in, as the Police get NOTHING not 1p from any ticket issued. For me its three fold firstly i don't want to have to see dead people all smashed up and then go and see there loved ones, secondly its my job and thirdly ITS THE LAW.
We are all adults (well most of use) You all know the traffic laws, and you and you alone chose how you drive your car, so don't come moaning when you get a ticket when you choose to break one of those laws. Or God forbid you are ever arrested for causing Death by Dangerous Driving. And you can all think it wont happen to me, so did the chap who killed a woman crossing the road a few weeks ago, or the man on his way home from work who killed a child on a push bike, Your driving the car you make the choice.

come on< even on the police programmes on the TV the police drivers are driving round watching groups of kids by shops, drunks coming out of pubs, kerb crawlers. They are not even watching the road in front of them.

thats the problem here, who watches the watchers.

Be honest it is mostly about revenue, not to the police but to the government. Don't put petrol in a diesel. They don't run well.