Hi guys

herewith the promised picture. Draw your own conclusions re: damage done by water in bio diesel and/or lack of lubricity of the diesel. Keep in mind these are untreated metal surfaces that do not react kindly when exposed to moisture.

Click image to enlarge

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

Argh yes the metal bits from an engine

I'll leave it to somebody else to say what they see

All I can make out is bit of metal that look like errm....metal  Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

I can easily see the extra micron of wear on the needle  At work
At home

"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

npinks wrote:

Argh yes the metal bits from an engine

I'll leave it to somebody else to say what they see

All I can make out is bit of metal that look like errm....metal

???  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

is it all that is left of an engine following catastrophic failure due to not adding t3? At work
At home

"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

Hello

I have joined this forum just to join into this fascinating thread (I own a couple of passenger car diesels).

Can anyone supporting the use of 2 stroke oil comment on the ash requirements for the JASO Specs - http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV0412.pdf?

A member of another forum that I belong to pointed out that the JASO ash levels (JASO FB = 0.25%, JASO FC = 0.25%, JASO FD = 0.18%) are far higher than that of European (and Australian) diesel (100 ppm = 0.01 %).

This would seem to increase clogging for DPFs. Any thoughts?

Thanks

Hi kaanage

you have to look at this in the proper perspective. 2sO is added at 0.5% of fuel volume i,e, 500ml per 100 litres of diesel. ^

Due to the properties of JASO-FC compliant 2sO, which drastically improves (reduces!) the emission of solid particles due to increased combustion efficiency, there are actually less solid particles accumulated in the PF then when driving with plain 50ppm diesel.

If you want more in-depth info, please send me a pm. With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

COBBLERS...........people who mend shoes ______________________
2011 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8
2012 FL2 SD4 Auto HSE
2013 Kawasaki Versys 650

Those figures about sulphated ash are given as if only that substance (oil, diesel, etc) is burnt.
Meaning if ONLY 2T oil is burned, then the ash will be 0.25% from the mass of the burnt 2T oil.
Or if ONLY diesel is burned, the ash resulting will be 0.01% from the burnt diesel mass.
Indeed if you took it mathematically, 0.5 liters of 2T which produces 0.25% ash, mixed with 100 liters of diesel which produces 0.01% ash, will result in a mixture that will give 0.01125% ash.
An increase of only 0.00125%.
But because of the increased "violence" in burning process, the result will be much cleaner, like DiscoGeorge said.
Remember that the DPFs are cleaned by raising their temperature in order to burn the particles of ash.

But this burn and after-burn positive effects are well known and apreciated.
Sadly, no proof of a better lubricity, before burning process is taking place, from tank to burning chamber, was shown.... Until now... Who knows, maybe this will change.

Thanks alex_pescaru - that pretty much backed up my calculations and reasoning but people on another forum keep asking for PROOF (emphasis is to indicate their insistance, not me having a snipe at you) that DPFs won't be harmed

As for the lubricity angle, there is a post on this page at the Diesel Bombers site where someone (Deezel Stink3r) states that the German Military mandates the use of 2-stroke oil when their vehicles use pure Jet fuel JP8 to add missing lubricants - it's about halfway down.

Interestingly, he disagrees with seom people here about the unsuitability of fully synthetic 2-stroke oils with diesels but then his car doesn't run a DPF.

Hi kaanage

the unsuitability only applies to vehicles with a DPF. On other vehicles it is just pure overkill. The only negative impact if used on non-DPF cars is the price of the 2sO.

Thanks Alex for your explanation. Very well laid out!  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

alex_pescaru wrote:

... But this burn and after-burn positive effects are well known and apreciated.
Sadly, no proof of a better lubricity, before burning process is taking place, from tank to burning chamber, was shown.... Until now... Who knows, maybe this will change.

Hi Alex

I am back in Switzerland today and after my return to office in SA on 16th March I will then go and see the guys and post the pics.  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

alex_pescaru wrote:

But because of the increased "violence" in burning process, the result will be much cleaner, like DiscoGeorge said.
Remember that the DPFs are cleaned by raising their temperature in order to burn the particles of ash.

Actually, the ash stays as ash and cannot be burned away. During a DPF regen, the carbon soot is burnt off so the simple additive increase in ash must occur (even it is infinitesimal), so while regens may decrease the DPF will clog (unrecoverably) about 12% more quickly.

Given the cost of DPFs, this is a legitmate concern IMO

You're right, I should have said "particles of soot", not ash. I was in rush. Darn, I'm making rimes now...

Look at the problem in this way.
Ash will also appear as a waste product of burning away the soot during regeneration, right?
Like you said, it will builds up on the surface of the filter and will eventually clog the pores.
Ash accumulation after repeated regenerations is a critical factor that affects the expected lifetime of DPFs.
But as long as the regenerations are fewer, because of the 2T addition, then the ash is also less...
I know, I know, the explanation is pretty thin, it's somehow wishfull thinking, but hey, in life you cannot have it all...
At least you will shift a little the localization of this increased ash away from the DPF...
Long live the non DPF cars that can use without problems any additive and/or 2T oil...

Also consider these (info taken from another forum):
Not everyone knows that the DPF can phyically trap soot particles in the 0.1 and 0.2 micron size.
However since your airfilter doesn't trap particles that small (typically 3 - 4 micron would be a good airfilter), any dust that get swept through your airfilter and engine, will promptly stick in your DPF forever.
In the same time, most fuel filters don't filter out particles below 2 microns, so contaminants from your fuel will also contribute to DPF failure.
So, did you thought about these ?...........
It seems that the ash isn't the only/main thing that you need to worry about...

Let me indulge in thinking this through aloud....

If the soot is pure carbon (or contains other elements that are totally combustible at DPF regen temps), then no ash should be left as residue after it is burnt away in the regen. So the number of regens shouldn't affect the permanent clogging of the DPF since non-combustible particles (ash) is required for this.

But the issue is made more complex by the soot particles containing some ash which in pure form SHOULD be small enough to pass through the DPF. This means that the reduced soot, by more complete combustion when 2-stroke oil is added, MAY reduce the ash that is trapped in the DPF, prolonging the life of the DPF or at least offsetting the increased amount of ash. We need tests to determine the size of the ash particles when there is complete combustion and also the reduction in soot when 2-stroke is added (Deezel Stink3r seemed to get a 56% reduction according to his emissions test)

And some of those airborne and fuelbourne particles will be combustible to some degree so the resulting post combustion particles (more ash) may also be small enought to pass through the DPF if combustion if complete enough. The fuelbourne particles should be allowed for in the 100 ppm ash spec for Euro/Aussie fuel.

Plus don't forget the crankcase oil added by the EGR system which is definitely not low ash.

Yes, DPFs SUCK for all sorts of reasons