Nodge68 wrote:

IanMetro wrote:

Interesting article by Car Enthusiast Rowan Atkinson with a message at the end that sums up how I feel.

I tend to say that if their car is an old diesel and they do a lot of city centre motoring, they should consider a change. But otherwise, hold fire for now. Electric propulsion will be of real, global environmental benefit one day, but that day has yet to dawn.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/...n-atkinson

Fortunately the facts are more positive than opinions and lies.

Fully charged might be considered a pressure group, but to what benefit? They don't make money off anyone but their watchers or patreons, both deciding to contribute to the show. They are just presenting a different view from the propaganda spouted by the oil companies.
We've had members on here that have EVs, and I don't recall one saying they were bad, in fact they love them.
Every argument or discussion needs to be balanced, but the oil giants will always try to put the car buying public off EVs, as they will loose billions once the world is off burning fuel for energy. Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate. The family car.
2009 Rimini Red SE TD4. Gone.
2006 Tonga Green i6 HSE. Gone.
Audi A5 convertible, my daily driver.
1972 Hillman Avenger GT, the project.

I suspect the answer lies between the two, the ICE is not that efficient and pollutes, but to what extent is debatable, there are certainly more options to reduce emissions in both diesel and petrol though CO2 in petrol is not going to reduce unless the mpg is increased to double the present. the same for BEV, it's not as good as some supporters claim and despite the claim that used batteries can be used for power storage in domestic and industrial buildings, yet you can't buy one. We are a long way away from large trucks and buses going BEV efficiently and practically and towing reduces the range to a third in real life, no arguments, an acquaintance of mine tried it with an Audi E-Tron towing a 1600kg caravan from the west of Scotland to St Andrews actual range just over 75miles, try going to the French Med coast on a fortnights holiday from Scotland as I used to do with the Freelander in a BEV. my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

As with everything, there are always going to be compromises. The towing argument is moot for 90% of vehicle owner's. I read a survey done by the AA or RAC, I forget which, but it basically said that only 10% of driver's have ever towed anything, but for that 10%, it's a valid point. Range reduces when towing in an ICE vehicle too, it's not like they are immune to range reduction. It's just that an ICE is already so inefficient, that the extra load and drag makes proportionally less difference. Obviously a tank of liquid fuel contains more energy than a battery, so distances between fill ups is longer, but they are still more frequent with a trailer attached.

EV buses not working,that's not really accurate. There are over 650,000 electric buses worldwide, over 450,000 in China, where whole cities are running nothing but electric buses. London has around 800 full electric buses, and the driver's absolutely love them. First Bus UK have just placed an order for 193 full electric buses for use on various routes around the country. There are over 8,600 in Europe and increasing. Electric buses are a rear thing, and work just fine on most routes. The up front costs is what is preventing them being used across the board, but as old buses are being retired, the replacements should be electric, if the operator can afford them. HGVs is a challenge, as they need to run long distances between charging, but they're not far away. A driver can only drive 9 hours in 24 (10 twice a week), then this means the vehicle will be sat around waiting while the driver rests. This is the time to charge the battery, so as long as the battery is large enough to allow for a 10 hour shift, then there should be no issues. I think last mile delivery vans and small lorries make more sense than electric HGVs though, especially as these vehicles are what produce the most pollution where people actually live and work.

Buildings using batteries is a real thing too, although in reality very few are using second life batteries, at least not on a commercial scale. There are many examples of 100% renewable powered buildings, ranging from domestic homes to massive wear houses, although most will be using new batteries for energy storage, rather than second life batteries. This however is most likely due to the lack of batteries coming onto the second life market.

There are however tenss of thousands of individuals across the planet that are using second life batteries to power their homes, workshops, sheds and so on. I'm one of them, my workshop is fully green with solar charging batteries, which is then used to power everything in the workshop, as well as charge the family smart devices, run the broadband router, and freezer, all powered 24/7 by solar.
I also have solar on my house, which covers a huge majority of my annual energy requirements. Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate. The family car.
2009 Rimini Red SE TD4. Gone.
2006 Tonga Green i6 HSE. Gone.
Audi A5 convertible, my daily driver.
1972 Hillman Avenger GT, the project.

The guy that owns the E-tron also owns a bus company operating in a rural area, he had two hybrid buses bought with a government grant, they went within 8 months, due to maintenance and reliability issues he said the cost of running them just wasn't viable. my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

I bet people are queuing up to drive the electric trucks 9hrs work and resting for 15hrs

It’s fundamentally wrong that users of petrol and diesel cars should carry the burden of taxation which is raised on hydrocarbon fuels , to the benefit BEV drivers . People running BEV now especially via companies are having a bit of a golden age . Taxation at the pumps in round terms for hydrocarbons is 50% of the price paid . Home Electricity is 5% . Based on this a FL2 driver is paying around 10 pence per mile driven into the government coffers , the BEV driver nothing much as vat is 5% . Obviously fiscally the playing field has to be levelled. It shouldn’t be an issue , if you can afford to buy or lease or get BIK on any 30, 40, 50K vehicle , you can afford to pay toward the tax burden of the country that provides the infrastructure you use .

Ps . Ref a point made above , don’t confuse drivers hours with truck operating hours . Pre retirement I had a small fleet of tractor units on one of my sites and x3 the number of drop trailers . Those vehicles were on the road 7 days a week 24 hours a day with drivers on shift , driver swap overs were even made off site where necessary . Same with PSVs on the road 16 hours a day for a bus is normal . 2009 GS Auto Zermatt Silver - Sold June 21 after 10 years of ownership

2016 Subaru Outback SE 2.0 diesel SE Premium Lineartronic Sold 2024 after 8 years and 80k miles . Best Car I ever owned !

2023 Toyota Hilux invincible X 2.8 Auto .

Dartman the one wrote:

The guy that owns the E-tron also owns a bus company operating in a rural area, he had two hybrid buses bought with a government grant, they went within 8 months, due to maintenance and reliability issues he said the cost of running them just wasn't viable.

Just a driver wrote:

I bet people are queuing up to drive the electric trucks 9hrs work and resting for 15hrs

Yes you’re right hgv can be charged on route I have seen all the charging points in the lay bys. Are you paid by an electric company or something as it seems to me your electric or nothing. As for tfl how much have they had in subsidies from the government, if I was getting hand outs I think I could make something work .

I was quite surprised to come across an electrified Autobahn in Germany last week. Seems like an awful lot of infrastructure for not that much gain. https://insideevs.com/news/440388/germany-...es-trucks/
My twopennorth on electric:
1 Things are still developing really fast. My 2022 Volvo T8 has an electric range of about 25 miles, but Volvo have already boosted that to a claimed 40 miles
2 I suspect electric car insurance will get more expensive. When I switched from Evoque to Volvo the broker had to cancel the insurance and use a different company, as the old insurer refused to cover a hybrid. A friend of mine recently had his one month old MG written off - it wasn't badly damaged (rear end shunt while parked) but a lot of the car structure consists of the battery, and once that was damaged it was not economic to repair. Having waited over a year for it he was not happy.
3 The charging systems still aren't fit for purpose - most of the providers still seem to need you to have their own app, and some of those aren't great (the Scottish one gets one star reviews). I recently spent a weekend at a hotel near Hamburg. They were very proud of the four brand new charging points outside and I thought I'd try one out. It wouldn't accept my British credit card, and when I tried to download their app I got the message "not available in your country". So I just bought a bit more petrol. One of my local BP stations has had charging points for over a year, but they are still not in use - I suspect there still isn't the local infrastructure to provide enough electricity for them.
4 I'm very happy with my Volvo - most of my local journeys are done on electric, and longer journeys still get up to 40mpg on the motorway (although it's a heavy car with a LOT of acceleration, so off the motorway it's more like 25).
I'd say at the moment the plug-in hybrid is the way to go unless you only do short journeys. Ex AA Series III LWB Safari - Gone
300TDi Disco (bought new - terrible car) sent back after 18 months
Freelander 1 Estate - leased, given back at end of lease
200TDi Disco (bought from a mate with 100,000 on the clock) - Gone
Disco 2 TD5 - sold and exported to France
FR2 TD4 GS - Gone
FR2 SD4 HSE - Now changed for a DS
New model ex-demo Evoque S 180 in white
Unable to order a new DS, so gave up. Now have a Volvo S90 Recharge.

TFL couldn't give a monkey's as it's not their money!

Last edited by Wonderdust on 7th Jun 2023 3:44 am. Edited 1 time in total

Just a driver wrote:

Yes you’re right hgv can be charged on route I have seen all the charging points in the lay bys. Are you paid by an electric company or something as it seems to me your electric or nothing. As for tfl how much have they had in subsidies from the government, if I was getting hand outs I think I could make something work .

Nodge68 wrote:

However Amazon plan on having 700 EV HGVs and over 10,000 EV vans on the road in the UK by the end of 2025, so if Amazon believe they are a worthwhile investment, then they are.

Jules Said
The best way to "save the planet" from a vehicle point of view is to try not to buy new ones, keep them going for longer and not drive at all if you can help it. But ofcourse car manufacturers want you to do the opposite.


I have to agree with Jules, as I think that if you strip away the TAX incentives (and disincentives) the EV still has a hard case to prove from an economic viewpoint.

As for driving less, I quote my entry in the 'Cars I have Owned' thread -
My own cars (passed driving test in beginning of 1961)
1961 1961 Ford 100E Popular -- 60k+ miles over 3 yrs --first car -- freedom!!
https://www.freel2.com/forum/topic5324-90.html

I do enjoy driving and am reluctant to give up my day trips.



I have had several serious goes, over the years, at starting a spreadsheet and seeing if a Hybrid or Plug-in would work for me, but each time, the real cost has stopped me straying from the Oil Powered existing car.

I can see on my computer spread sheets include the Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4 (I had a demonstration ride at the launch and they gave me the pictured mug, plus the advice that they were aimed at business customers (Tax).
I tried again with the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and even got a Domestic Charger fitted just inside my garage. But, again the figures did not just stack up.

I am now in the market again, and the Volvo XC60 T8 Inscription Pro seems to give me what I want, that is except the price.
(Did you see the previous post in this thread by 'Pastmaster', who used to own a FL2 and now has a Volvo XC90 T

PS I forgot to say, the Volvo salesman I spoke to questioned my PHEV choice and tried to convince me that a diesel version would suit me better?? FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 77k+ miles) (MY2015)
Metro in its 11th Year of (Extended) LR Warranty / Full LR Service History
(Expensive, but Trouble/Worry free - hopefully?)