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With the best facts that come in this whole debate being littered with 'might' 'could' 'possible that'..I sense there are no facts just hogwash.

richardk wrote:

or do you want to be governed by a european parliament where we have next to no influence?.

Is that because the UK electorate elect like Farage into the European Parliament who then doesn't show up for the debates or votes?

No..because rather than being le big fish in a little pond as we are currently we'd be a le tiddler in an big pond

The main issues of this referendum are undoubtedly UK government law plus immigration and the control of our borders.

Unfortunately the Remain campaign (including our present government) want to focus on the economy. Nearly every non partisan economist I have heard or read agrees that it is impossible to forecast the effect a Leave vote will have on our economy over say the next 5 years.

Last week on Question Time Ed Milliband and Caroline Lucas spent much of the valuable time banging on about the economy and arguing over figures such as whether being a member of the EU cost UK a net annual £8.5 or £10 billion pounds, also on how the government could spend the £2.5 billion net surplus received from EU immigrant workers in UK.

To put these figures into context they should be compared to the amount of money printed (now known as Quantative Easing) by the UK government following the banking collapse, which was £375 billion between 2009 and 2013 see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24614016

While on that subject and now that the UK economy is improving the EU are printing £834 billion or Euro 1.1 trillion (QE) between April and Sept2016 see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30933515

Don't get distracted by economic issues, a worst case is the economy flat lines or dips for a few years but it can recover. Our cultural identity and green fields will never recover after a vote to remain.

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The main issues of this referendum are undoubtedly UK government law plus immigration and the control of our borders.

Interesting article I read the other day about Brexit. The argument goes like this. If the vote is for LEAVE then initially nothing happens, then we start a 2 year period of negotiation where we hope to cherry pick the best bits of the EU (trade deals, issues about EU rules on free movement, product safety, employment rights etc etc). During this time we may have a new PM (Boris or Cameron or even Corbyn if the conservatives implode) but either way they will seek to convince the public that what they have negotiated is a really good deal and that we are now effectively out whilst for all intents and purposes we might still be in. Now this is two years down the line by which time most people will have forgotten about the whole thing anyway (remember the 2011 referendum on proportional representation? - most people have forgotten that one) and don't forget that the vast majority of MPs are for IN so how will the government get much of the contentious stuff through parliament anyway without diluting it?. So I have to ask myself two questions
1 what actually is LEAVE and
2. how will we know if it has really happened? 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
5 x FL2 4 manual + 1 auto
Now Discovery Sport P250 MHEV SE

Certainly requires an act of parliament to exit, MP's are not known for voting as per the wishes of their constituents once ensconced in the house, capital punishment vote proved that. There only needs to be a vote in the house to exit, if the referendum vote is stay then no need for a vote. my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

I'm voting out and my wife is voting in, each cancelling the other's vote.

so should we really bother voting?

Iain

Unfortunately, although I feel Brexit had the edge last week, Thursday's unforgivable murder of Jo Cox has turned everything on its head. Brexiteers are being seen as nutters - tar & brushes, etc. Latest polls show Remainers 3 points or so ahead. We have church services all over the country today; Parliament sitting tomorrow to (rightly) eulogise Jo, then Wednesday (Jo's birthday) a boating parade on the Thames from her houseboat to HP. All timed right for Thursday's referendum.

Lost to the Establishment and the actions of a nutter. Sad, sadder than sad..... Why did it come to this?

Us? - We have Postal Votes and have done so already 10MY (Sept 09) TD4 HSE Auto in Stornoway Grey (Now Gone)

08 FL2 TD4 SE Manual in Rimini Red (Now Gone)

I am still undecided but someone sent me this: it's an analysis of the current situation by Prof Dougan from Liverpool Univ. who tries to bust a number of EU myths and lies from both sides of the argument. Well worth listening to

 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
5 x FL2 4 manual + 1 auto
Now Discovery Sport P250 MHEV SE

Cheers for posting that Dorset. The whole debate has been an absolute disaster. Our politicians are some of the worst in Europe-completely incapable of providing a balanced and intelligent debate. In my opinion, the whole thing should of been taken out of the hands of the political elite and limited to hard facts rather than scaremongering and hearsay. You only have to read the various posts on here-immigration, immigration, immigration...... Immigration should be part of the debate but only part of it. The reality is immigration will continue regardless of whether we are in or out. I like most people want to see stricter controls introduced but not at the expense of our membership of the EU. The company I work for employs a large number of staff from mainland Europe. The reason they do is because they cannot find skilled workers in the UK. I can't see that changing and I'm sure our company is not alone.

[quote: The company I work for employs a large number of staff from mainland Europe. The reason they do is because they cannot find skilled workers in the UK. I can't see that changing and I'm sure our company is not alone]

What makes you think that leaving the EU would make it difficult to employ skilled workers from EU? In 1970-72 I worked in Munich Germany as a skilled engineer at Dornier Aircraft, together with 50 or so other UK workers. It took only a few days to obtain and subsequently extend my working visa, some of my British colleagues stayed for many years (and are possibly still there). At the time there were hundreds of British and Irish builders working on the new Munich underground system plus Olympic Stadium - as depicted a decade later in the popular TV series Auf Wiedersehen Pet.
Around the same time many other ex apprentices from my intake were working at Fokker in Holland and at Sud Aviation/Airbus Toulouse France. Also many skilled Europeans were working in the UK in the NHS, shipping and finance to name but a few.
At present the majority of working age EU immigrants to UK are unskilled and the vast majority of all working age UK emigrants are skilled. This used to be known as the 'brain drain', but with mass uncontrolled immigration and a lowering birthrate of families with parents born in UK, this is creating an undesirable situation which I do not need to spell out.

Immigration is immigration whether you are skilled or unskilled. The people still need houses to live in, their children still need to go to school and the healthcare system still has to take care of them. As I said previously, immigration should only be a small part of what is a huge decision. There are means of controlling unskilled migration whilst staying in the EU-successive governments have chosen not to use them. I would like to see both EU and non-EU migration controlled. Boris Johnson and his the Daily Mail reading followers are under the impression that voting out of the EU will solve all our problems and the UK will suddenly become the promised land. Absolute nonsense.

The debate just heated up!

 LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

[quote= Boris Johnson and his the Daily Mail reading followers are under the impression that voting out of the EU will solve all our problems and the UK will suddenly become the promised land. Absolute nonsense.[/quote]

It will be the promised land for him in the event of Brexit as he clambers into No 10 (if all goes to plan).