Understood Dorset, a selfless attitude. However we are being asked to vote for what is best for Britain, not the EU. Think of it this way, if we were not already in the EU but had the chance of joining, would we vote "join" in a referendum now? Of course we would not. That is why we must vote "leave" now!

Bob 10MY (Sept 09) TD4 HSE Auto in Stornoway Grey (Now Gone)

08 FL2 TD4 SE Manual in Rimini Red (Now Gone)

EYorkshire wrote:

Greece can hardly blame the EU for its own governments incompetency of spend, spend, spend what they never had.

Greece's situation is certainly down to Greece's corrupt and incompetent politicians of the time, especially their repeated fraudulent reporting to the EU of their financial status. However, Greece never met the financial criteria for joining the EU in the first place, it was the EU who bent the rules to let them in and continued to bend them to keep them in. They were let in for political reasons, which shows politicians are not politically capable of running the EU in the manner they intend.

It is important to remember the reason we are potentially leaving the EU is because of political harmonisation, something which has crept in over the last 20 years, and appears to have done nothing but cause problems. We are not intending to withdraw from NATO, which is what has kept the peace in Europe since 1949.

One thing I have noticed about the downside arguments for leaving the EU are they all prefixed by the phrase 'could happen' and not 'will happen'. With that in place you can go on to say what you please, everyone could be £3000 worse of etc etc, if you ignore all the 'could' arguments, there isn't much left. 
Hung like Einstein, smart as a horse.

My postal vote arrived today

Click image to enlarge

Interesting article in the FT today pointing out how little impact, in reality, the EU has had on the UK. Most of the changes were kicked off internally eg by Maggie zapping the unions and the introduction of the Big Bang to the City in 1986. Tony Blair's govt actually pushed the EU for inclusion of eastern bloc countries.
What I am finding quite scary is the poor level of debate on the topic and how most people think it's just an immigration issue bought to a head by the Syria crisis. If we left and wanted to trade with the EU we would still have to accept free movement (like Norway, Switzerland etc) with no say in the matter so no change there. 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
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The most ridiculous statement I have heard was yesterday, the G7 stated that Britain leaving the EU could harm World Growth...... Are we going to start trading with other planets instead ? 
Hung like Einstein, smart as a horse.

Dorsetfreelander
quote:
If we left and wanted to trade with the EU we would still have to accept free movement (like Norway, Switzerland etc) with no say in the matter so no change there.

Do you really believe your own statement?? can you really imagine if UK made the sensible decision to only issue work visas to EU citizens who are trained and qualified in a required trade or profession (plus seasonal agricultural workers), then all the major EU manufacturers including Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi (plus many others - but we are an auto forum) - would react: never mind, we will sell our products elsewhere!!

I understand that free movement is one of the fundamental articles of the EU such that if you want access to the market you have to accept it. Basically if you want to sell stuff to them without import tariffs then you have to accept free movement as does Norway and Switzerland. If we leave then they are not exactly going to make it easy for us and give us concessions. We will also have to meet all of the EU legislative stuff on vehicle emissions, safety etc.
All I am saying is that a market of 500M will call the shots whether we are in or out. 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
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You may well be right but we currently import more goods from the EU than we export to them. If a tariff were to be imposed by the EU we would match it and thus make a nice profit. We would also be able to open up new markets without the hindrance of getting 27 other countries to concur. Britain has the ability and the skills to be a world leader and innovator doing what it and it's people want to do rather than the vanilla approach of the EU one size fits all.

It's not all about immigration,though heaven help us in that it will get worse ,it's about our lack of sovereignty,being part of a failed experiment that is creating massive unemployment amongst Europe's southern states viz Greece, Italy,Spain and Portugal.Its about the EU wanting fiscal union,setting laws to suit the whole which may not suit us. It's about the EU wanting there own army which could lead to the breakup of NATO which has kept us safe for generations. It's about being able to choose who we want to come into the country to fill skills shortages similar to that of Australia. It's about distancing ourselves from the fallout when the Euro crashes and for sure it will sooner or later. It's about government for the people by the people rather than a cabal of faceless bureaucrats sitting unelected in Brussels.

As you can imagine I'm voting OUT. MY 09 GS manual in Lago Grey, Wood Co arm rest and side bumper strips - now sold.

MY 15 SD4 SE Auto Orkney Grey with colour coded Bumper Door Mouldings

If we left, the sitting government will know that they would likely get voted straight out of power if they set up the same arrangements that the majority of the public had just rejected.

Given our military standing, nuclear subs and a shiny new aircraft carrier about to enter service I'm sure the EU would be able to find ways grant us favourable trading arrangements. 
Hung like Einstein, smart as a horse.

dorsetfreelander wrote:

I understand that free movement is one of the fundamental articles of the EU such that if you want access to the market you have to accept it. Basically if you want to sell stuff to them without import tariffs then you have to accept free movement as does Norway and Switzerland. If we leave then they are not exactly going to make it easy for us and give us concessions. We will also have to meet all of the EU legislative stuff on vehicle emissions, safety etc.
All I am saying is that a market of 500M will call the shots whether we are in or out.

Not necessarily, because the shots they are calling are only as big as we are. If we leave, we'll be in the cheaper world market, and so they EU would have to compete with those lower prices if they want to continue to sell us stuff. If they can't offer those prices, we shall have other sources from which to buy stuff. We'll have the upper hand with our trade defecit, and we don't have to have a trade agreement - it's be best if we leave and open up to free trade to allow our economy to flourish. We always have to meet any regulations of the destination country on our exports, and I understand our trade with the EU is only about 9% of GDP, so there is plenty that won't be affected by that.  Freelander 2 2007 TD4 Manual HSE Tambora Flame
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tenet wrote:

If a tariff were to be imposed by the EU we would match it and thus make a nice profit.

I wouldn't say that - as a small nation with a trade defecit we would be best off if we abandoned any tariffs and allow our economy access to the goods at the lowest prices.  Freelander 2 2007 TD4 Manual HSE Tambora Flame
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Previously: Freelander 2 2007 TD4 Manual SE Santorini Black

Every world leader and virtually all economists say that we would be worse off out of the EU. Boris says we won't, now how does that stack up as an argument?

ps I am undecided at present but it is clear that most people are basing their decision on heresay and mythology about short term economics, trade deals and immigration. In 40 years time the world and the issues will be totally different so the question really is one of positioning - are we better placed by being a small country on our own or part of a larger political block? 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
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Most of the economists and politicians would rather keep their necks off the line - if we stay, their job is much easier. There are also huge vested interests involved with very big voices, and politicians don't like to upset them. When you apply common sense and consider the supply and demand, resources and people, it's quite clear to me that there is a strong economic argument for leaving.

Positioning is exactly what it's about, and positioning ourselves in the most effective market for us (the world market) is key. All our common interests and our allies will remain the same, there will still be the same supply and demand. Our sucess, like any business, is simply down to producing what people want at a good price.

 Freelander 2 2007 TD4 Manual HSE Tambora Flame
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Previously: Freelander 2 2007 TD4 Manual SE Santorini Black

dorsetfreelander wrote:

Every world leader and virtually all economists say that we would be worse off out of the EU. Boris says we won't, now how does that stack up as an argument?

Economists predictions very rarely pan out, they only predict in areas around the status quo or trend. Not long ago Goldman Sachs (very respected economists) were predicting oil prices of $200 a barrel. Not long after that prediction we were nearing $40 a barrel so they started predicting we could go as low as $20 a barrel.

In my opinion EU politicians and their policies are actually destabilising Europe evidenced by the rejection of their policies by people voting increasing for far right orginisations.

Being part of a large political block just sounds horrendous to me. 
Hung like Einstein, smart as a horse.

A larger and more federal europe would negate the need for our own parliament and indeed MPs.That's a positive

With the best facts that come in this whole debate being littered with 'might' 'could' 'possible that'..I sense there are no facts just hogwash.

The only real decision is do you want to be governed by Her Majesty's Government through electing MPs or do you want to be governed by a european parliament where we have next to no influence?.

My biggest fear is the immense power Germany exert within europe.