alex_pescaru wrote:

Some facts, thanks to Toadshall:
https://www.freel2.com/gallery/albums/user...1-0848.pdf

Despite the fact that the paper doesn't point exactly to a specific additive, it still says:
Specific lubricity additives with carboxylic acid-, ester- and amide based chemistries can increase the lubricity in a variety of base fuels at a concentration of 200 ppm to meet the lubricity requirement according to EN590.

Interesting that, again, it says that biodiesel, in concentrations of 5% or more, is quite enough for satisfying lubricity issues.

They've also talk, besides High-Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR), about the High-Temperature Oscillating Machine (HiTOM).

The HiTOM (High-Temperature Oscillating Machine) has been designed by BOSCH to reproduce in a controlled environment the main contacts that are present in the drive of Common Rail pumps. The machine kinetics of the chosen machine element are tribological similar to the real conditions experienced in the high-pressure pump.

And a MAJOR thing, to say at least, at conclusions:

Therefore, the removal of sulphurised compounds is not the major reason for the loss of lubrication of ultra low sulphur diesel fuels.

Then, who is the culprit?....

If someone would have access to a High-Temperature Oscillating Machine (HiTOM) and test the addition of 2sO it will be great!
Up until then...

alex_pescaru wrote:

If someone would have access to a High-Temperature Oscillating Machine (HiTOM) and test the addition of 2sO it will be great!
Up until then...

George your findings confirm what I (eventually!) picked up from the OP. The only evidence Yamaha-fan was able to provide seems to show that one big manufacturer recommends 2SO for special applications - which I take to mean when running in areas where the diesel may be dodgy. I think we can take it as read from your posts that the diesel in SA is pretty c**p, and that the 2SO addition provides a useful safeguard against pump and injector wear.
However we have seen no specific evidence (as far as I can recall - this thread has been going a long time) for advantages here in Western Europe where the diesel is generally of a higher quality. Some members reckon their engines are quieter and get better mpg, both of which could be down to the alleged raising of the cetane number by the addition of 2SO. Whether we make any more gains from it is a bit of a moot point. And of course few of us are putting in the sort of mileage you refer to, so that aspect may anyway be academic.
One thing we might consider over here is adding a dose of 2SO to supermarket fuel, which some members (again with no proof that I'm aware of) say is of inferior quality. However the study referred to above seems to show that similar results are obtained by the addition of 5% bio-diesel, which applies to fuel sold here anyway. So I think for us the jury is still out...

Hi Past Master

One of the most intriguing aspects of using 2sO in continental Europe (as well as in the areas in and surrounding Lesotho) is, that it improves cold start behaviour. This can most easily be proven in those vehicles, that are fitted with a Webasto Diesel Preheater. These tend to refuse to start during very cold mornings and if the diesel fillied is not of the highest quality. This then normally results in the unit producing copious amounts of gray smoke with a persistant refusal to produce warm air.

However such same vehicle when filled with 1:200 ratio 2sO added to the diesel operates faultlessly. Another very interesting aspect is the absence of loud diesel clatter, especially on the older 200Tdi and 300Tdi motors when operated with 2sO added. With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

The TDi motors of course are "ancient" technology where the FL2 is concerned. They are more tolerant in many ways - lots of people run them on neat cooking oil because it's cheaper than diesel, with no obvious ill-effects - but that may also mean that they react more obviously to additives. I wonder whether the cold start improvements you mention are also down to the improved cetane rating - you might find the same effect with the "premium" fuels on sale over here.

Hi past master

the addition of 2sO to diesel actually LOWERS the cetane rating slightly. But it leads to a more intense and more controlled burning process than pure diesel. This also explains the lack of diesel clatter in the morning. Loud diesel clatter is nothing else but an accoustic manifestation of an imcomplete burning process.

The VW Tdi and Pumpe-Düse diesel systems are indeed different from the CRD systems used in the freelander and the V6 and V8 diesels in the Disco and RR. They are also much noisier than a common rail system. With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

Sorry for saying but in various previous occasions you said:

21st Nov 2010 7:52 pm
For the MB, BMW and VW CRD engines this is still to low and here in SA we apply the 2sO addition for two reasons. To add lubricity and to up the cetane rating of the diesel.

22nd Nov 2010 5:56 pm
The carbon removing additives in the 2sO over time internally clean the diesel engine, so that there are no carbon residues present. It is a combination of these cleaning properties together with the increase in cetane rating that primarily will give the improvement in mpg.

20th Mar 2011 10:40 am
Increase in combustibility of the diesel. SA diesel has a cetane rating of 47.

And now you say:

the addition of 2sO to diesel actually LOWERS the cetane rating slightly


So, in the end, which is true???

Hi Alex

you are absolutely correct with your observation. We initially thought that 2sO increases the cetane rating. But in actual fact it slightly lowers it.

So yes I was wrong with those statements. And I herewith profusely apologise!

At a mixing ratio of 0.5% there will be very little change to the cetane rating, but a big gain on the other aspects due to an increased (better controlled) combustion process of this 2sO enriched diesel.

Due to the fact that 2sO has a higher burn energy than diesel this is what causes the quieter running and the better cold start characteristics.

But the effects of 2sO on the running of a diesel engine (CRD or old technology) remain exactly the same as has been reiterated so many times here in this forum:

- Better lubrication of CRD and/or diesel injection components

- Better cold start characteristics

- Removal of carbon deposits from combustion chambers, from injector tips, from glow plugs, form ring grooves etc.

As I mentioned in my posting this morning, the best test for the effectiveness of 2sO added to diesel is the Webasto (or similar) diesel fired preheater, which is normally started with a timer some 1-2 hours before driving the car away. On very cold mornings this unit can refuse to start, due to carboned up injector nozzle or due to a clogged ignitor. You can compare this to an oil fired heater typically installed in homes. However if such a unit is run with 2sO added to the diesel, then this will aid in better cold starting, and also clean the diesel firing mechanism of carbon build up.

So folks that is about it. With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

DiscoGeorge wrote:

We initially thought that 2sO increases the cetane rating. But in actual fact it slightly lowers it. So yes I was wrong with those statements. And I herewith profusely apologise!

DiscoGeorge wrote:

As I mentioned in my posting this morning, the best test for the effectiveness of 2sO added to diesel is the Webasto (or similar) diesel fired preheater. On very cold mornings this unit can refuse to start, due to carboned up injector nozzle or due to a clogged ignitor.

Hi Alex

your comments on the fuel heater as fitted as optional extra to the FL2 and the Discos etc bear merit.

I was however referring to the older diesel fired heaters as were fitted to the the VW T3 Westfalia Kombis etc. Those didn't have those fancy electronics and I have witnessed many an unsuccessful attempt to get them to fire at -10 Degs.

You will remember that I specifically referred to those heaters, that were started with a timer, without the engine of the vehicle running.

Just for the record.

As far as the use of 2sO is concerned, no one is forced to use it. But for those who do, the benefit is in the avoidance of costly CRD component repairs. Yes I know in continental Europe and in the UK the average annual distance driven is much much lower than what we do here or also in Oz. So here in the southern hemisphere we tend to get those problems much quicker (in time) as it is not uncommon, for a bakkie or 4X4 to do 100'000km per year when used commercially. With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

DiscoGeorge wrote:

As far as the use of 2sO is concerned, no one is forced to use it. But for those who do, the benefit is in the avoidance of costly CRD component repairs.

alex_pescaru wrote:

DiscoGeorge wrote:

As far as the use of 2sO is concerned, no one is forced to use it. But for those who do, the benefit is in the avoidance of costly CRD component repairs.

Don't worry, as I've said before in this thread, I myself am using 2sO from day 1 in my 2.2 HDI.
But there are a lot of people who doesn't know what to believe and I will keep to play the "devil's advocate" until some realistic proof will come out - again, I am interested only in the tribological point of view.
And to be honest, I am waiting this proof for me too, because I am not 100% sure of it, the fact I am using it being just a hunch and a feeling that can't go wrong and just for the sake of a clean engine and it's enough...

Hi Alex

I for myself don't need any further proof, after what I have seen from dissected diesel pumps, that are being sent in for refurbishing after 500'000km and they just get new seals and are then re-calibrated on the flow bench.

It is actually amazing by how much this "muti" prevents wear on those pumps. The same goes for the high pressure shaft seals on the CRD HPFP's.

So for me it is down to 2 choices:

- Use 2sO

OR

- Forego the holiday money to refurbish CRD components after some 80'000 - 120'000km.

Needless to say for me it is option 1  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff

For those who do like to use it, I have just bought some castrol actevo 2T (FC rated) from a tesco garage for the remarkable price of £1.44 a litre.

wizking wrote:

For those who do like to use it, I have just bought some castrol actevo 2T (FC rated) from a tesco garage for the remarkable price of £1.44 a litre.

Hi wizking

that is what the TDV6 owners on disco3 uk forum are using. Jaso (Japanese Automotive Standards Organisation) -FC rating means it burns ash free and is suitable for vehicles with DPF  With kind regards
DiscoGeorge
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi with twin TrueTracs
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
And some more serious stuff