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Andy131

Member Since: 09 Dec 2009
Location: Manchester
Posts: 2183

certainly is
Vehicle specs are

http://www.g4ownersclub.com/AboutVehicles2009.htm Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

23rd Oct 2011 8:56 pm

JJJ

Member Since: 20 Oct 2011
Location: Pretoria
Posts: 16

2008 Freelander 2 i6 HSE Auto Alaska White

alex_pescaru wrote:
I'd go with stiffer springs, because a stiffer spring will raise the vehicle while maintaining the max. vertical wheel travel, because the halfshafts are designed for a certain vertical wheel travel, given by the shock absorbers. With spring spacers, you may exceed that distance and have problems with the halfshafts and their CVJs.

And also to mikehzz.

Yes, and no.

Your logic behind stiffening up the springs is spot-on. But you may end up with a Freelander 2 driving like a Tiguan. I think I am qualified to say that this is NOT what you want.

Adding spacers may have the predicted disastrous results, but ONLY if you exceed the CV joint limitations.

To determine these limitations, I measured up the front suspension geometry. The results are unfortunately at home, but I'll post tonight.

The measurements were then drawn to scale on a drafting package with spacers of various thickness inserted above the strut to graphically simulate what happens at the CV joints.

The spacer pushes the top of the suspension strut lower down. The whole assembly hinges around the bottom pivot, which is attached to the crossmember. The wheel therefor becomes more vertical (more positive camber), which is then adjusted out via the oversize strut bolt holes in the suspension turret.

The only change is that the neutral position of the transverse link and also that of the drive shaft, is lower than before, the same that you would get when one of the front wheels should drop lower than the other due to uneven ground.

The outer CV joint can accommodate 45 deg of articulation to allow for the steering, so here you will not encounter a problem. The inner CV joint (tripod type) however, can only accommodate 26deg of movement from axial due to the plunging action of the drive-shaft as the wheels move up and down.

When this limitation is exceeded, over time the symptom of left-right shimmying of the nose of the car - you can't see it, but you'll feel it through the steering - will become apparent. This is caused by unhappy inner CV joints. When the spacers are removed though, the symptom may disappear.

So any spacer design should be such that the inner CV limits are not exceeded. Typically this limits you to around 1" or less in practise. In the case of the LR2, 20mm would be safe.

For more lift, change cars.

24th Oct 2011 6:48 am

alex_pescaru

Member Since: 12 Mar 2009
Location: RO
Posts: 4642

Thanks JJJ for the info.
Still, a few questions:
1. What do you mean by riding like a Tiguan? In what way is that bad?
2. From where did you find out the CV joints limits?
3. What about the rear suspension and its limits?

24th Oct 2011 8:34 am

mikehzz

Member Since: 04 Sep 2009
Location: Springwood
Posts: 749

Thanks triple j. That must be why that German mob who used to do a lift for the FL2 could only come up with about 25mm and then they had to do the install themselves. Not much help when I'm in Australia and I wouldn't bother for 25mm anyway. Cheers.

24th Oct 2011 8:44 am

JJJ

Member Since: 20 Oct 2011
Location: Pretoria
Posts: 16

alex_pescaru wrote:
Thanks JJJ for the info.
Still, a few questions:

1. What do you mean by riding like a Tiguan? In what way is that bad?
The damping is very stiff on the standard car, to the point of discomfort, especially offroad. I replaced the standard springs on my Tiguan with H&R LIFTING springs, and the car was undriveable - it hurt. I had to take it out after 2 weeks. The LR2 has one of the most supple rides of any car I've owned, which one does not want to spoil and is also what you need when you drive in sand.

2. From where did you find out the CV joints limits?
From searching the internet. A development for wider range CV joints - up to almost right angles are presently under way, but this technology has not "hit the streets" yet.

3. What about the rear suspension and its limits?
This is not of concern, as the body of the vehicle moves up and down in front more so than the back when braking - this is when the LR2 needs more clearance. That plastic cover over the tow bar gets damaged under these circumstances - clearance is low, then you brake, the nose goes down and hits.

You can look here to see where I'm coming from: http://www.mytiguan.com/index.php?/topic/7...e__st__20. The last post #24, provides a further source of information at the Australian VW Watercoolded forum. My pseudonym there is "jcubed".

24th Oct 2011 9:47 am

sro

Member Since: 25 Oct 2011
Location: California
Posts: 68

I've decided to avoid a stiffer suspension since there's a big drawback for the gain in height: the reduced articulation means less contact with the ground. It's possible general off-road performance could even be worse given the LR2s lack of locking diffs (making tire contact more important).

It seems like if you want any additional clearance 20-40mm spacers and taller tires (just got the 255/60R18 general grabbers) are the way to go. You could eek out 3 inches from doing both. Installed a hitch, stock roof rack, mantec skid plates, General Grabbers AT2 255/60/R18, and a rear access ladder. Also made a hitch-mount for the winch. Looking to install a front hitch, rooft-top basket, and lift kit.

Tracking modifications and off-road experiences here: http://sam.odio.com/lr2/

29th Oct 2011 5:13 am

mikehzz

Member Since: 04 Sep 2009
Location: Springwood
Posts: 749

The traction control acts like locking diffs. I've had mine cross axled many times with 2 wheels in the air and it still keeps going which is more than I can say for my standard Jeep Grand. The traction control in that situation doesn't kick in till the revs are around 2000 on the diesel. Locking diffs would be better and give less wheel spin but it is pretty capable anyway.

29th Oct 2011 6:37 am

sro

Member Since: 25 Oct 2011
Location: California
Posts: 68

I worried that comment would provoke flak. The traction control is great, but it'd be a stretch to argue it's as good or better than locking diffs. If you disagree here's a great link that demonstrates its weakness: ?t=53s

And if you'd argue that the Freelander is different here's a video showing pretty significant wheelspin in the FL2: ?t=41s . You might argue that the driver should 'just punch it' to overcome the wheelspin but that's not always what you want to do in a situation.

My point is more articulation can reduce the likelihood of wheelspin and compensate for some of the weakness here. With extremely stiff suspension I bet you'd get wheelspin all the time on rocky terrain.

Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into a flame war about traction control vs lockers... Installed a hitch, stock roof rack, mantec skid plates, General Grabbers AT2 255/60/R18, and a rear access ladder. Also made a hitch-mount for the winch. Looking to install a front hitch, rooft-top basket, and lift kit.

Tracking modifications and off-road experiences here: http://sam.odio.com/lr2/

Last edited by sro on 29th Oct 2011 3:36 pm. Edited 1 time in total

29th Oct 2011 2:18 pm

EYorkshire

Member Since: 18 Nov 2010
Location: (!)
Posts: 4392

No flame war
I'm not sure the video was a fair representation of the Freelanders ability. Our instructor told us not to ride the brake as it will electronically cancel out what you are trying to achieve with the braking of the individual wheels, the car was revving way past what would be expected for the traction to kick in.
Also GGS mode (low torque/low revs) surely it should have been 'Mud n Ruts' for an earlier response, or maybe it's response is earlier in GGS mode. I believe the 'locking ' only occurs when you reach 2000rpm so maybe he was over revving unnecessarily and was impatient.
Either way its an interesting thread as Terrain Response is a bit of 'Black Art' to us all.

It just looked like self made hard work by an inexperienced driver.

I have no personal experience of this other than my instructors say so on the Experience day, confused

29th Oct 2011 2:43 pm

sro

Member Since: 25 Oct 2011
Location: California
Posts: 68

I think GGS was the right choice for that scenario...mud ruts allows for more wheel spin.

Maybe he was riding the brakes? I've heard that deactivates traction control entirely. Installed a hitch, stock roof rack, mantec skid plates, General Grabbers AT2 255/60/R18, and a rear access ladder. Also made a hitch-mount for the winch. Looking to install a front hitch, rooft-top basket, and lift kit.

Tracking modifications and off-road experiences here: http://sam.odio.com/lr2/

29th Oct 2011 4:19 pm

mikehzz

Member Since: 04 Sep 2009
Location: Springwood
Posts: 749

Mate no flame war. I clearly stated locking diffs would be better...no argument. But I also said that the car is pretty capable as is. It has surprised me on many occasions. Cheers.

29th Oct 2011 8:22 pm

MihaiB

Member Since: 30 Jun 2011
Location: Bucuresti
Posts: 137

2011 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Zermatt Silver

As promised earlier, please find below some pictures with the Mantec tank sump guard installed and its fittings to the body.

Overview, from back to front

Rear right fitting (as you look from the back to the front of the car)

Click image to enlarge

Rear left fitting

Front fittings

8th Dec 2011 2:50 pm

JJJ

Member Since: 20 Oct 2011
Location: Pretoria
Posts: 16

sro wrote:
I think GGS was the right choice for that scenario...mud ruts allows for more wheel spin.

Maybe he was riding the brakes? I've heard that deactivates traction control entirely.

The correct mode would have been Standard with DSC off. It is not as if the traction is poor - when the wheels do make contact with the ground. So this would have caused the least wheel spin. The Haldex is locked at this type of speed, and the GEN 3 system detects front/rear speed differentials and stops it within 1/24th of a wheel rotation. So this should look very smooth.

The driver is a complete novice, and brakes as soon as the car starts moving. I also do not know how he gets the revs that high without the car moving.

His technique may improve with experience, but I've been on trails with fellow owners who has had their LR2 for a year longer than myself, and they still drive like that. So maybe not?

8th Dec 2011 5:56 pm

Martas

Member Since: 25 May 2011
Location: Havirov
Posts: 39

Hi Mihail, is there any reason for cut-out right from the exhaust pipe at the last picture?

16th Dec 2011 8:19 am

MihaiB

Member Since: 30 Jun 2011
Location: Bucuresti
Posts: 137

Martas, I really have no idea

16th Dec 2011 8:22 am

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