Gaddafi knows he's got the Americans by the "islamaphoebic short n curlies", Sarkozy looks like he's about to "blow the whistle and go up-n-over the top - sing "its a long way to Tipperary" or should that be Tripoli. Never mind, the Arab League are still chattering over their "bubble-pipes", and the African Union are on strike out-of-touch to remain consistently indecisive.

The Queen to Hague yesterday - quote: "the Duke of York and Prince William will not fly helicopters against the Desert Prince (of darkness that is), and speaking of which, the Dutch want their cannabis back but son Safi of Sirte can keep the Lynx and its crew. Mugabe offers "Zanu Re-Education Staff" for those naughty Bengazi boys but in return wants his mentor's advice on what to wear and how to hold his next election press conference.

And another political crew - the UK Green Party are not sure whether to apply to the Industry and Trades Minister to get a High Court injunction to stop the Gaddafi Family using their green logo due to the recent changes in the environment in Lash Ranuf. Meanwhile the Pope Benedict offers the Tripoli Toad sainthood for a conversion to Catholicism.

Whilst Rasmussen this afternoon grandly spoke about "moving NATO assets" as though they were in a financial crisis but everyone knows that it's Rommel v Montgomery and all the boys at NATO really need to do is get out there WW2 history school books to find the solution.

Meanwhile the gritty sands of time rapidly fall through politicians' hands to be rapidly replaced by the warmth of fresh spilt blood in towns we all struggle to spell let alone place on a map. However the one thing we do know is that in the meantime the innocents realize that they probably will not be alive tomorrow to tell their tale. Where is Lawrence when you need him.

A new century a new dawn - dream on - it's just a repeat of the last one, and the one before that etc etc..

If this offends anyone's sensibilities - tough. Genocide is not pretty and man's inhumanity to man knows no bounds.

So to encapsulate, it's Groundhog Day?

Good point well made athelstan.

The press talk of the financial impact and of course the risk to the innocent civilians. The problem is that while the UN and NATO etc sit there mulling things over, Gaddafi and his merry men are killing innocent people left, right and centre.

I am not suggesting bombing the sh out of him and sending in troops etc but the no fly zone would be a good starting point.

Never underestimate the opponent but I dare say that our Eurofighter Typhoon Jets and the USAF F-22 Raptors for example are far far more advanced that anything Gaddafi has, not to mention the skill of NATO fighter pilots. Gaddafi's planes are blasting the innocent people so lets go shoot them down.

Mandatory Russian Veto of UN plans notwithstanding LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

In reply gentlemen the situation is dire - consider this:

The two members on the UN Security Council who have already stated that they do not support any UN mandated military action against Libya are themselves guilty of military intervention (invasion) of another sovereign nation without prior approval of the UN Security Council or its predecessor - they are China (invasion of Tibet Oct.1950) and Russia (invasion of Georgia Aug.2008). The hypocrisy of the UN.

And, within NATO there are two members who have already undermined the possibility of it (NATO) engaging in a cohesive military manner despite the fact that they have demonstrated in the past that they are perfectly willing to act unilaterally without the approval of NATO partners; that of the USA (secret invasion of Laos April 1970) and Turkey (invasion of Cyprus July 1974). The duplicity of membership.

These are just 4 examples - other members of these "vestiges of morality" have pulled the trigger without consent whenever it has been "appropriate" for them to do so in their own national interest. Libya is like Bosnia - it is on Europe's doorstep and it is in every Europeans interest that it is resolved expediently.

It is always hard to comment on issues not relating to ones own country. Who becomes the worlds police and with what rights?

Demonstrably the present acknowledged "World's Police Force" has failed miserably to both prevent or protect the lives of the innocents in conflict zones across the globe. And equally demonstrably is that unauthorized interventions by individual States have also in the main failed long term. However there will always be a case for intervention based solely on humanitarian grounds . If not, the ethnic/tribal slaughters of Rwanda, Bosnia, Burma, Tibet, Kosovo, Armenia to name just a few will be forever repeated.

Doing nothing is not a defensible option in any civilized society, and neither is acquiescence.

The UN appointed "Commission on Intervention and State Sovereignty"* reported in December 2001 that there does exist grounds for military intervention on humanitarian grounds alone within the UN Charter as that charter embraces the principle to: Protect, Prevent, React and Rebuild. The Commission's Report was subsequently endorsed by the UN Security Council, however two of those SC members today are apparently suffering from amnesia.

Clearly therefore the present system of veto is broke, or, it is fine and workable only when the members of the UNSC abide by their sworn commitments to the Charter. This dichotomy between compliance and commitment fails those in need of protection.

It is time therefore to abolish the right of veto on articles of an agreed UN Charter purely because the Security Council's member's government finds it currently inconvenient domestically to support such action.

CISS Commissioners: Philippines, S. Africa, Germany, India, Guatemala, Switzerland, Russia, USA, Algeria, Canada & Australia.

Personally I think the UK should stay out of it, let the UN and who ever else wants to get involved

We simply can't afford to have troops keep doing this type if thing, it will turn into another endless war like afganistan and Iraq Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

i belive that NATO military intervention will have reprocutions that will reach past the military NATO soldier and the loss of life on both sides (not withstanding the lybian army is no iraq tinpot force) what about us the comon man who goes to the pumps and fills up once a week or so. if nato or UN do something and gadafi turns the uk western oil supply off imagine what the effect on fuel prices and the cost of the barrel of oil is through the roof as it is.

is the british public prepared to support a oil driven war in a far of land and line the streets of wooten basset for another decade

removing this dictator may well not be as easy to remove

True, the UK must face up to it, we just cannot afford to police other countries. We neither have the armed forces capacity, money or the hardware to be able to do very much effectively, by all means play a role but accept it has to be a minority one, we are not a leading player anymore. Rule Brittannia is dead, gone and should be forgotten.

i think thephrase we are looking for is somethething like


punching above our weight in the world stage that is a boxing ring

With due respect chaps it is nothing like what you report.

1: Libya's oil production represents just 4% of the world's oil producing nations total output, and, that 4% has already been supplemented by Saudi Arabia alone increasing her output since last Monday to compensate. The increase at the pump in fuel prices is pure profit taking by the markets, an action that consuming governments could if they have the will prevent.

2: The proposition is not for the UK (or any other single EU member) to take unilateral action, but, for those existing legal bodies to do so in unison, i.e NATO and the EU now. UN sanction is a polite prevarication which, as previously discussed, is in its own Charter already legally sanctioned.

3: The "Rebel Council" have already made perfectly clear they seek airborne military assistance and do not require "boots in the sand". The EU and NATO should respect that wish given the weight of evidence provided by international media crews of the barbarism of the Gaddafi regime.

4: The International Red Cross stated yesterday that they have absolutely no access to all areas that the Gaddafi regime controls, but open access to all rebel held areas to monitor human rights and compliance with the Geneva Convention. The RC state that they fear the worst in western Libya.

5: Your sanguine comments andw, EYorkshire, npinks reminds me of Chamberlain's confident waving of "Peace in our Time" piece of paper - tell that to over 20m victims of the National Socialist Party (Nazi). For one moment don't think about fuel prices or other issues - think about your daughter or wife being raped then shot, or your father or son being tortured and then executed by Gaddafi's paid tribune.

I am in agreement with you athelstan. The cost implications are shared when nations stand together against Gaddafi but as you say athelstan, the poor innocent people are suffering and we would not like that to happen to us.

As per the above post from me, we have got superior technology and resources (i.e better fighter planes) and we also have highly skilled pilots.

All these people need is the necessary air support to shoot down Gaddafi's planes and then we can let the rebel alliance sort the ground warfare out. They have requested such assistance remember. Also remember that the Arab nations have come forward and agreed that no-fly zones are a positive step.

The mandatory Russian veto of any intervention is of little concern. Even if they agreed with our cause, they would say no to it just because they would see it as a sort of One-upmanship.

God bless the cold war! LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

Quote:

think about your daughter or wife being raped then shot, or your father or son being tortured and then executed by Gaddafi's paid tribune.

EYorkshire

Yes I do believe the rebel forces are behaving better than Gaddafi's paid mercenaries and his coterie of loyal troops - why - because the rebels have allowed outside observers to roam at will (without "minders") at their own risk to bring the truth to the outside world, and, the International Red Cross/Crescent have been allowed freedom of access to all rebel held areas and captured prisoners. Gaddafi does not.

The UK military does have the capacity to be of assistance in combination with other NATO and EU partners to prevent further loss of innocent lives.
The history of the middle east is a tragic one, and you are wrong to state that no one denounces the arrogant Israelis and the conduct of their occupation. Many do - daily. During the last Israeli invasion of Gaza 10's of thousands were on the streets of London and many other European capitals voicing loudly their condemnation. Perhaps you were sleeping or indifferent to those events. And they are not one off protest actions - for updates on activity just use internet media.

The politics of oil and the west is not what is driving the Libyan rebellion - it is the opportunity for freedom from horrific repression, something of which folks living in the UK have not experienced since the Reformation. The last desire for freedom of expression in Europe was against the brutal tyranny of Slobodan Milosevic and before that Nicolae Ceausesu. For an opinion of is freedom worth the price and is outside assistance necessary ask any of those who survived their regimes.

Finally, on a personal note, you are simply not qualified to express a puerile reference to where I live - be it in the "cosy" mountains or in the Peak District National Park. Your opinion on the subject matter is welcomed so let's stay focused there, in North Africa.

Yes, it is people like you, me and thousands of others that denounce the regimes of certain countries for their behaviour against mankind, but it falls on the deaf ears of the politicians that do not want to criticise an ally that is useful/important to them. I'm saying that us, the people in the street are not swayed by political motives, only by the suffering we see.
By all means curtail Gadaffi's regime and hopefully end the suffering on the innocents brought about by this uprising, but the West will manipulate whatever and support whoever to get a bigger foothold in the door.
All the suffering in the other countries of Africa go unnoticed, why, because the people and the country have no resources the west are interested in.

Finally, on a personal note, you are right, that comment was not deserved I get annoyed when I see the badness, the bewilderment, the confused people caught up in this upheaval having to leave their homes not knowing where they may be next week.