dennij wrote:

Even hydrogen requires some form of energy to produce it, even if you look at some of the latest attempts to produce it using solar energy, you still need to use non green methods to build the solar panels in the first place.

Looks like the old milk float type electric vehicle is making a comeback - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41025771

With lead-acid batteries they were good for about 30 miles and close on 30mph on a good day. A firm I worked for had several Morrison electric vans and trucks which were mostly used inside the factory and for short runs outside around the site. There was also a diesel-electric truck, I suppose it would be called a hybrid these days, which I used to drive. The diesel engine powered a generator to power the electric drive motor and to charge the lead-acid batteries. Outside the diesel would be used but inside it was switched to battery power. This truck was also used to power various equipment used on site as the generator could be switched to power the equipment.

Another firm I worked for had a Coles diesel electric mobile crane. Same principle as the truck, a diesel engine drove a generator which powered the transmission and the crane functions. It was a great bit of kit until someone (no me) drove it into the canal while unloading a barge.

J

Hydrogen fuel cells mmmmm.....

Lets take the example of an 80kw fuel cell stack , this at current levels is 50% efficient, so it will eat 16 bottles of compressed hydrogen at 150bar per hour - trust me on this I do have some experience.
so compressed gas, probably not a good idea.

Liquid hydrogen far denser so a better proposition?
It has to be kept at minus 250C to remain liquid, insulation at this level is not practicable, you will need either to use it or vent it to avoid a unsustainable increase in pressure. so leave your car parked outside for a 2-3 of days and 25% of your fuel has to be vented to prevent overpressure, economically not good. and venting hydrogen might annoy the neighbours.
Then you have the problem that the fuel lines are at minus 250C and oxygen solidifies on the surface, unless of course they are vacuum insulated - and we still can't stop simple brakes lines on modern cars from corroding.

A Freelander at 160kW would use the equivalent of 32 standard bottles of H2 an hour - you are going to want a big heavy high pressure fuel tank.
Just for clarification a fuel cell = 0.8V so they are commonly built up in stacks similar to lead acid batteries.

Me I'm betting on the current fashion of hybrids, not because they are efficient, or environmentally better than diesels, just that they are fashionable and easier to produce that a real alternative to good old fossil fuel. Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

What is the situation if you store it as a hydride? 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
5 x FL2 4 manual + 1 auto
Now Discovery Sport P250 MHEV SE

Granted I haven't looked closely into alternative methods of storeage, hydride storeage does seem to add weight, which for larger vehicles might not be a problem.

As an aside I believe that BOC does a "small" -175W hydrogen generator - google HYMERA.
They also do a high(400bar) pressure plastic cylinder - so more fuel and less weight.

One of the problems with fuel cells is that they require very clean hydrogen - 99.995%, otherwise the catalysts suffer irrevesable damage.
The majority of hydrogen is recovered from petroleum products and therefore have a higher than acceptable contaminates level. So the fuel is more expensive than standard hydrogen - look on the bright side less contaminates = cleaner emmissions Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

We will have nuclear fusion powered cars by 2050 anyway so no problem. Apparently it's only 30 years away (and always has been ) 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
5 x FL2 4 manual + 1 auto
Now Discovery Sport P250 MHEV SE

For £66.000 you can get the Toyota Mirai running Hydrogen Fuel cells.
Range about 300 miles with 5Kg full tank.

Read the review @ Auto car link below.


https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/mirai

edited used wrong tag

Last edited by paxman on 6th Sep 2017 9:08 am. Edited 3 times in total

Or for £53K the Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell - 100kW fuel cell, range 369 miles from 144 litre tank.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/hyundai/ix35-fuel-cell

Hydrogen production and distribution remains a major problem, however. Some outlets are generating hydrogen on-site using (they claim) renewable energy sources (off-peak wind-generated electricity) but there's a container-load of equipment backing up each pump, which doesn't sound like a scalable solution. But with biological synthesis and improved storage and transportation technologies hydrogen fuel cells could have a real future.

P.S. If fuel cells take over the Americans will finally be correct - they really will be filling their cars with 'gas'.

Not sure that I agree with this in total as it ignores the fact that electric cars will still have brakes and suspension and diffs and steering and doors etc etc. Looks the video was created by someone who has never actually worked on a sick car.

https://transact.ft.com/en-gb/?play=electr...TDCarousel 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
5 x FL2 4 manual + 1 auto
Now Discovery Sport P250 MHEV SE