Ok Dorestfreelander, I get the marketing bit, though I don't personally agree its very smart to turn off a large section of your potential market in the process … some may not bother to look again!

It's obviously true the LR market base has grown loads from the basic 4x4 needs of the past. However, the old chestnut challenge of "who actually goes off-road anyway?" is NOT the only reason people are drawn to 4x4s. I enjoy the driving position, view of the road and most importantly the fact that my car can handle most road conditions when others struggle or fail, particularly in the winter. My actual off-road driving is limited to 3 LR experience days and a few excursions while on holidays. That said, I expect to stick with 4x4s from now on, LR or other if necessary!  Life is not a dress rehearsal!

Agreed Nick, I like the Freelander for all the same reasons, we have several in the family at present, one goes of road on a daily basis and does occasionally get stuck. This was grounded during the wet weather last spring.

Click image to enlarge

pab wrote:

Maybe LR have been concentrating too hard on the Range Rover brand - they certainly seem to have dropped the ball when it comes to the Land Rover brand.

The rot started long before the DS, with the iconic Defender. This was allowed to struggle on with no significant development for year after year after year until finally being killed off by EU legislation. Yet even now there is no replacement in sight - 2018 seems to be the likely release date for another vehicle bearing the Defender name. (I hesitate to say Defender replacement, as it's looking likely that the new Defender will be nothing like the old, and may well be just yet another lifestyle SUV.)

Is this just incompetence? Or is it a deliberate ploy to defuse the disappointment which is likely to be felt when a new and different Defender finally breaks cover? Either way the result is that most potential Defender buyers are now driving around in pickups of various kinds (nice one Land Rover!).

Then there's the DS. More models coming, we hear, but today's reality is that the current DS is 'it'. That means that the cheapest LR (ignoring the Defender, for obvious reasons) now costs £33K, and for that all you get is a facelifted GS-spec Freelander with a design which makes it look like yet another RR! Disappointing, to say the least.



Maybe when viewed in the context of new markets in Asia and Eastern Europe this strategy makes some kind of sense, but it's hard to see how leaving gaping holes in the model range can ever really make sense!

The DS has now been aligned to the X3/Q5 with size, spec and price almost identical. After looking at the competition I now can't see them adding a 'lower' 5th trim level, the SE is as basic a spec as you get on a 'premium' 4x4, in fact if anything it's a bit lower than the competition.
If there was an imminent Freelander sized Discovery on the cards we would have heard about it by now. If they decide to introduce a baby Discovery it will be well into 2016 before it hits the roads.

Hands up those who would buy a mini Discovery (about the size of a Freelander 1)?

Interesting thread.
From what I understand, DS is on sale from Jan 2015 with SD4 engine. Ingenium engines comes mid year (after Jaguar XE) and petrol versions will be auto only. I agree there are probably more trim levels to follow after the initial surge of sales(?). We must remember that Russia, China and India are the big markets, not UK.
I am guessing that DS will still be LR2 (or perhaps LR3) in USA so there is room for LR1 to squeeze in underneath as an entry model LR. Discovery 5 and Defender replacements will be next.
My 2013 XS will be due for replacement in Jan 2016 so I have to look at specs and prices nearer the time. Looking for a British-built 4x4 doesn't leave too many options. Gone... 2013 XS TD4 Manual Firenze Red
Gone... 2008 (09MY) XS Td4 Manual Stornaway Grey
Prior... 2003 G4 Discovery 2, 1998 Disco 1 and 1997 Disco 1 Company car before that
Also gone in Nov'13, after 7.5 yrs, to new owners with time for more TLC - 1980 Series III 88
Current 2015 Discovery Sport HSE 2.0

dorsetfreelander wrote:

Hands up those who would buy a mini Discovery (about the size of a Freelander 1)?

Walked past a parked Discovery Sport HSE Lux yesterday and had a good look from the outside. Two things struck me ... It's not as big as you'd think from the photographs, and the interior is nothing special considering this was top spec. But to my eye it knocks spots off the BMW and Audi equivalents so I'm sure it will sell very well to that section of the market.

Whether it knocks spots off the Freelander, though, only time will tell......

Can't say I have much faith that LR know what they are doing at a strategic level and doubt if they have much grip on tactics either. This is the same company that have happily allowed their vehicles to languish at the very bottom of most reliability tables for years without making a commitment to improve quality/reliability and lower cost of ownership. Defender sales collapsed because it was such a poorly engineered and out of date vehicle - as has been mentioned, modern Japanese pick ups are a better buy for most off road users.
The Disco prospered specifically because it was not another BMW X5 Audi Q7 clone - the true competitor to those vehicles is the RR Sport. In recent years the Disco became so expensive and lavishly trimmed and equipped that it was in effect just a Range Rover in a less shapely body. So LR have effectively abandoned the market for full sized hard working practical 4 x 4 vehicles.
They have also now abandoned the market for smaller affordable 4 x 4s - a market that they helped create with the FL1. The Disco Sport looks nice but is far too expensive, lower and thinner than a Freely 2 with poor ground clearance between the rear wheels and has had a complete practicality bypass - with the dubious exception of the extra seats in the rear crumple zone. How do they think it will be better off road than a Freely2? I suppose it will sell as the perfect wagon for nanny taking the kids to kindergarten in Chelsea. Problem is it now has no unique Landrover selling point - what is there to distinguish it from any of the BMW, Audi etc rivals? LR will loose out if their vehicles are not significantly better at something - the question of whether owners actually take them off road is irrelevant - the brand stood for something but not for much longer. LR will never achieve the volume sales necessary to compete like for like with the far larger producers. And we now have a Disco Sport which costs more than a Range Rover (Evoque) - they really ought to be asking for their money back from those marketing geeks that sold them all that pillars of Discovery/DualPurposefullness/Luxury clap trap.

Chris B wrote:

I am guessing that DS will still be LR2 (or perhaps LR3) in USA so there is room for LR1 to squeeze in underneath as an entry model LR

One supposes that if it is too highly priced for the UK market to sell in large numbers then the residuals will be low and 6 month old versions with a couple of K's on the clock will come in similar to the Freely prices. FFRR's being an example. my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

I've just come across one of Clarkson's articles from early last year in which he puts his finger on what's gone wrong at Land Rover.

In it he says:

Quote:

The trouble is that Land Rover's head of styling is not a man who you can visualise in muddy wellies and a 40-year-old Barbour jacket. And that shows in the car he's created.

Quote:

Let me give you an example. When you unlock the doors, lamps illuminate under the door mirrors to provide a puddle of light. Good idea. Means you won't accidentally step in one of the dog's turds.

However, I'm sad to report that picked out in the puddle of light was the motif ‘Range Rover'. And this, I'm afraid, is simply ghastly. It might as well say ‘I am a massive bellend'.

Personally, I think they are moving in the right direction given that they have to capture lucrative overseas markets to compete. They can't afford to limit themselves to a UK centric buyer. Given that BMW/Audi/VW are doing so well with their 4x4s in the UK, and given that the Range Rover brand is so strong over seas, to me their strategy is pretty good.

Now, that doesn't mean to say they have got it right with the Defender etc and all that. The utility vehicle market is clearly not something they consider to be a marketable strength anymore, given how much marketshare they have lost to the Japanese. It would take alot of cash to make headway there and it would probably yield relatively low margins compared to the 'lifestyle' sales.

I also think people are too harsh on some of the decisions made during the 'bad' years. The constant uncertainty about ownership, solvency and a general lack of stability must have taken their toll. Especially as the new owners all had their own agendas/strategies. I actually think Tata have been great owners; they have pushed money into R & D and provided a stable platform to develop a good stable of products.

I think you raise a good point about foreign markets - I live in a French ski resort and millions of Europeans drive up to the Alps/Pyrenees/Jura etc every year and probably 30% plus are in 4x4s - so I guess I get to see what the European markets like! The evoque has taken no1 spot for LR from the FL2 and after that its the old RRS. So people like the luxury image, reasonable storage for their sports gear and kids and good snow handling. I will be interested to see how the new RS performs in serious snow - looks promising being lighter and lower and of course more family oriented than the evoque...

As per stangs response. JLR as a business are indeed moving in the right direction...look at the shambles that they were 10 years ago!

We will (sadly) NEVER see the like of the Defender, or any other iconic style of LR vehicle again whilst we are part of the cursed EU, who in true militant fashion are determined to get us all into electric vehicles come what may. Whilst this regime dictate what can and can't be built for "green" purposes, JLR cannot sit idly by twiddling their thumbs....they have a business to run!

It's not just the car industry that are suffering...not content with banning Vacuum Cleaners over 2000w, Honda/Hayter/Mountfield/Qualcast are probably crapping themselves as they are after our Lawnmowers as well! Foraging near Gaydon....
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MY13 HSE Lux SD4, Baltic Blue - current, 30,000> miles without fault
MY12 HSE 2.2 SD4, Sumatra Black - gone after 10 months/43,000 fault-free miles