Nor sure that there is anything "clever" about commenting on car design on a car related forum Taz - is this not what forums are about?
I am not referring to the benefits of stopping the engine and being a good driver.
What about if one does not for whatever reason stop the car engine?. Run away cars have caused lots of accidents over the years and the incidence may have increased in recent years with poorly designed Electonic Parking Brakes for example either directly causing accidents or compounding a driver error to cause run away cars. Certainly Renault and Vauxhall had numerous incidents when handbrakes released to cause cars to roll away. This has I think been acknowledged with better (SAFER) design which takes account of heat related expansion/contraction. Last week I listened on my marine radio as tragedy came across the net involving a car which ran down a quayside into a river causing death. The facts of that incident may of course not directly involve handbrakes or automatic "Park" position confusion but I have direct knowledge of the facts I referred to earlier when the uncertainty in the driver's mind as to where the electronic selector was at caused an accident. Hence my dislike of the electronic nudge button gear selector. Hope the Freelander 2 keeps a nice big stick thingy!
Robin

The big stick is a benefit in some situations, ie a failed hill climb, although both designs can lead you to sticking the car in park locking the wheels, rather than reverse to regain control.
I am not convinced though that the stick is best, it is nothing more than an electronic switch making the same decision as the dial, I understand your sentiment about its action because that is what we have been taught, new drivers will more thn likely adapt to using the dial to effective and safe use.
I have an old auto where the gate is reversed, that becomes fun at times when I think it's in reverse and have only gone from D to 2 still going forward

And then again... maybe we are all just a bunch of old farts . Bring back the 8 track and VHS  (Coming) 2016 RR Evoque td4 180 HSE Dynamc
(Going) 2013 TD4 GS Auto - Santorini Black with black leather. Cold Climate, UK Lighting & Armrest Packs. Privacy Glass. LR Rubber Mats. Full size spare.
60 000 miles averaging 35mpg

(Gone) 2010 TD4 Manual GS - Stornoway Grey. Sold at 3yrs old & 64k miles. Final average consumption 39.2mpg.

Im sure some remember the single record player in cars,

Going back to the design of the TR selector in the new model; not only is the switch operation a bit fiddly, it's badly positioned being behind the gear leaver. In my opinion it would have been much better to place it in front of the gear leaver because where it is now is completely out of your line of sight, meaning you need to glance away from the road to find it. It is also a bit of a stretch back with your arm to reach it. I suppose it is more aesthetically pleasing to look at though, even if it is far from practical.  gone MY2010 GS TD4 Manual Stornoway
arrived MY2013 GS TD4 Manual Aintree Green

I haven't sat in the updated model yet but I can imagine the change of the 'Terrain' knob to 'switches' is design over practicality, a backward step in my opinion but change in design always wins the customer over as they want something different no matter how absurd it may be.

At least it is not something used every day so not really a huge safety issue as the 'terrain' response would normally be set before starting out on whatever journey you had in mind, and occasionally on the move.

Handbrake why that fugly great handle has lasted so long I don't know, it just doesn't belong in the modern car and is in the way.

Last edited by EYorkshire on 27th Mar 2013 9:03 am. Edited 1 time in total

Tradewind 35 wrote:

Poor design compounds any mistake by a driver - that is what safety by design is all about and why good design is safe design. A clear example of that is exactly what others mention even if out of context - the designed in default for an auto when engine switched off should be - auto revert to "Park". But envisage any situation where the driver might quickly want to put the car into "park" mode whilst leaving the engine running. This is exactly when you need an unambiguous gross motor skill - slam a nice big tactile lever as far away from you as you can and the car is in absoutely definitely in "Park". Contrast that with fingers twiddling a little dial and turning or nudging it until it clicks through to "Park" and it lights up a pretty coloured "P" which requires a visual check to confirm where it has decided to alight at. That is not inherently safe and any goof by the driver can cause someone to get run over. Does that compute?

Robin

I get were you are coming from, simple safety, being able to lock up the car from habit rather than using a button.. but times change mechanical levers for gears and handbrakes are being phased out and will never return.

tractors have electric gear changes, these can frustrate you until you get the nack then after that the thought of a clumsy gear stick seems laughably old fashioned. At work
At home

"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

The issue isn't just aesthetics or practicality - it's one of good UI design. Ideally all the controls on a car should be able to be operated without the driver having to divert his attention from the road. A chunky knob with well-defined click points fulfils that objective, a pair of small buttons doesn't. A good example in the pre-13 cars is the lighting panel - the main lights are on a reasonably-sized knob and can easily be operated blind. The fog light switches, panel dimmer, etc, are small buttons or wheels and cannot - particularly as I (and I'm sure others too) can never remember which control does what. Light switch, OK. Other lighting controls not - good thing they're not needed often.

The new TR controls are bad for that reason if no other - they are harder to operate blind with one's attention on the road, particularly if, say, wearing gloves as one well might be in adverse conditions. It's another example of modern LRs being 'adapted' for the fashion-conscious executive saloon market, rather than for a utilitarian 4x4 market. If only they'd leave 'style' to the RRs and leave the LRs as proper 4x4s!

DId a little research on this (I'm currently studying an ergonomics / human factors course where we look at exactly this kind of stuff) and found a paper that back up Tradewin's position. I can't link to the whole paper because it's restricted access, but here's a few relevant quotes:

Participants relied on physical feedback to confirm they had activated Park correctly
"Force data revealed that drivers shifted to Park in a ballistic manner, and continued to apply force to the gearshift lever after reaching the Park detent in an amount that far exceeded that which was required to move the lever into Park. This suggests that participants relied on the kinesthetic feedback from the gearshift lever hitting the mechanical stop at the end of the Park gate to determine when they had reached the Park position."

...which was unique for going in to Park; indicating a need for more certainty
"...both genders used more force when initiating their shifts into Park from Reverse compared to Drive"

Errors happen with the gearstick when people are distracted
"Gearshift errors, in which participants shifted into unintended gears or forgot to shift into Park, occurred almost exclusively on trials for which participants were either hurried or hurried and distracted. Three out of 65 participants neglected to shift to Park and then exited a running vehicle—a potentially dangerous scenario should it happen on a real road."

So if 3/65 made a gearshift error when distracted with the gear stick which has excellent physical feedback and arguably has strong affordances, it's not that much of a leap to hypothesise that with a lower level of physical feedback (i.e. with the rotary dial) and an unfamiliar control that more errors would be made.

Here's the abstract: http://pro.sagepub.com/content/52/23/1898.abstract

Next summer I'll be doing my dissertation...perhaps I'll add this to my list of possible research topics

btw I know Land Rover takes this stuff seriously - I met some of their human factors/ergonomics folks at an event a while back - so I'm sure they had good reasons for their changes ( doesn't mean we can't disagree tho

Good post, Yanwoo.

There is something deep in the human psyche that looks for positive feedback/reinforcement when safety/security is involved. It's not enough to place the lever in the park position; we have to feel that it can't be pushed further.

I don't doubt we would all soon get used to whatever new procedure is in place, and maybe build in new routines that serve the same purpose as did the 'slam' reinforcement previously

Good post yanoo - I was not aware of that research - but it is fairly basic stuff. Electronic advances nowadays mean all car controls could be finger tip - or mouse click operated. Behind the scenes most of the mechanics are in fact operated by electric motors and computer software but the human interface should still be context related for some controls. To choose an extreme example - we could substitute a mouse button on the dashboard for the brake pedal - clearly that is hopelessly wrong because braking may have to be done in an emergency when a brake pedal would be stampd through the floor if it could go that far. Stamping hard on a brake pedal connects with the driver's need for positive interaction with all the computer power wich will bring the car to halt safely. Fiddling with a tiny button would not.
To get back to the row of flush buttons for the new TR controls - I think LR just plain got it wrong. I very much doubt if there is a sensible reason for it. It is of course just possible that the row of buttons is significantly cheaper to make and cheaper to maintain but I doubt it.
All the moves in the Full fat RR/Disco etc were towards doing away with rows of identical looking buttons. The rotary dial was a unique design feature and nice to touch. Everyone has their own ideas about interior styling of course - the buttons look ok to me - perhaps they are more durable than the old dial if the labrador puts his great big muddy paw on em....
Robin

Having had the Evoque for the past year and a bit, using the TR which is in the same place as the Fl2 and the same switch gear, I haven't found it to be any more difficult than reaching over a gear lever to turn a knob. I don't even need to take my eyes of the road to change settings, I know the order of the settings and it shows you on the dash which setting you are in.

It's not difficult.

Accept it, deal with it and move on. 21MY Defender 90 S 3.0 D200

That's great j77 that it works for you.

I guess we were discussing more how the experience may be for the overall population, where there's likely a wide range of physical and cognitive capabilities (for instance, I've had my current car a year but whilst driving still have to look at some of the control buttons to identify them).

j77 wrote:

Accept it, deal with it and move on.

.. and here's me thinking topic discussion was what a Forum was all about