Thoughts - assuming a seized fuel pump, and knowing that these items are generating the absolutely ginormous rail pressure of 1800 bar. The failure is most likely to be the result or a combination of:

The ambient temperature.
Fuel contamination (eg water or petrol).
The fuels lubricity.
Excess sulphur in fuel eroding aluminium component internal anti wear coatings.
A component manufacturing defect - unlikely, the failure would be more internationally widespread.

If an upgraded camshaft is now fitted, perhaps it is to to ensure the integrity of the camshaft at the expense of the HP pump. Shards of material entering an engine is potentially catastrophic to the whole unit.

I talked over this particular subject with my local main agents technical manager today. He was intrigued. He had not experienced a single example of the failure. Later, speaking to a helpful chap at the customer service desk, he related that the previous day a chap had driven in to the agents in a LR 2010 diesel vehicle, (I cannot remember the model) after mis-fueling it with petrol. Bill to repair in excess of £5000. The fellow almost had apoplexy when told the huge costs could mostly have been avoided if he had not started the engine!

Mis-fueling is very common and clearly fatal in diesel engines if started. Fuel stations seem particulary unhelpful in this in respect of standard fuel names and hose colour codes. Vehicle manufacturers likewise for a fueling failsafe system.


Best regards Toadshall

When I worked at a Ford main dealer we had loads of mis-fuelled cars in. Yes, if a diesel had been started and run on petrol the pump, injectors filter etc. had to be changed all of which worked out pricey even on a four cylinder Ford. Megabucks on a six or eight cylinder LR. Interestingly in a number of these cases the owner's insurance paid for it. John
07 HSE Narvick Black
Land Rover Series One
Triumph Rocket 111 (sadly gone!)

It seems that none of the HP pumps were seized. All rotates quite easily after camshaft failure.
But....
It seems that most of the models with broken camshafts were automatic ones.
All failures had happened during acceleration.
On automatic ones, there is an overboost segment over the RPM range, around 2000 RPM. Meaning that the pump must deliver a superior rail pressure and therefore the greater resistance to rotational movement.
There is an ensemble of pieces, with different material composition, on the connection of the camshaft with the HP pump that can facilitate, during time, a quite consistent play.
All this corroborated, could lead to premature wear and considerable play during rotational torsions.
The play lead to small impacts during sudden variations in rotational speed.
The impacts can lead to microscopic cracks in the poorly designed end of the camshaft, that finally lead to the failure.
Just my 2 cents...

1 - pump to camshaft adapter
2 - pump shaft

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Alex - you are starting to worry me now.
The wear in the pump shaft is horrendous, mines an early auto that has done 80k.

Is there a specific year/years that are prone to failure? or should all "early" (pre 2009) autos consider a new pump at 100k?

I put 2009 as ther seems to have been some major changes around that time, such as newer Haldex.

Or does it coinsdie with the drop in power from 160-150bhp? Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

Anyone know the part number for the improved camshaft?

Hopefully it's not the same as the old one!!!  Discovery 4 HSE - Aintree Green
Freelander 2 TD4 SE Automatic - Tonga Green
Defender XS - Tonga Green - Gone Now
Freelander 1 Td4 ES Manual - Epsom Green - Gone Now *
Freelander 1 Td4 Kalahari SE - Epsom Green - Gone Now
Freelander 1 XEi - Epsom Green - Gone Now

www.greenlandrover.uk

Camshafts versions are:
1 - old camshaft - up to 8H092005, 160/152/150 BHP, up to February 8, 2008 manufacturing date
2 - new camshaft - 8H092006 to AH999999, 160/152/150 BHP, after to February 8, 2008 manufacturing date
3 - new camshaft - BH000001 and later, 190HP

Also, the HP fuel pump has several versions:
Up to 7H039918 = LR001320
Up to 7H039918 = LR006863 (remanufactured)
7H039919 - 9H999999 = LR006663
7H039919 - 9H999999 = LR009296 (remanufactured)
AH000001 and later = LR030432

Click image to enlarge

Alex,

I wish to say a big thank you on behalf of us all in the freel2 community, the data and photo's you are providing are excellent, highly detailed and hugely valuable, if not concerning.

I now understand the mode of camshaft failure, but not its underlying dynamic cause. Percussive mechanical failures following a degree of wear are common, but this being a critical component, catastrophic failure will be disastrous

Why? Because if this failure is limited to the '07MY - '08MY then the vehicles UK residual value of approximately £10.5K to£11.0K (mine has only 28.9K mileage) will be close to written off in engine repair costs. I am unclear of the engines exact layout beneath its plastic covers, and whether a camshaft failure means pistons hitting valves. Either way shards of camshaft may find their way deep into the engine, but hopefully avoiding pressure galleries because of the filter.

The following occurs to me:

1
This engine is used in other guises by Ford, Citroen and Peugeot. Has the camshaft failed on any of these other applications in a similar way? I appreciate that the outputs of these engines may be smaller

2
The Q106 firmware update to the ECU and the Haldex electronics, entitled SERVICE ACTION: DIESEL AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION SLIP/FLARE - may also have included a revision to encourage a more moderate relationship between the HP pump and its camshaft drive.

3
Is the camshaft failure problem principally confined to Romania/Eastern Europe.

4
If the above holds largely true - Why? Are the available engine lubricating oils high quality and at least meeting the LR specification?

5
Is fuel cheaper in Eastern Europe, and consequently driving styles more agressive throttle wise? Heavy throttle loads would maximise pump demand and therefore maximum pump loadings. I grasp at straws!

6
I note the revised camshaft has a different boss/locating system to the HP pump. Are their more detailed photo's to show the differences. Do you have a part number for the upgraded camshaft.

With your help, and the help of other contributors, I intend to get to the bottom of this worrying problem. I plan to contact LandRover direct at a senior level, but to do that I need compelling and irrefutable data and photo's of course to professionally argue my case. I will not go quietly.

It may be that the Q106 firmware update enables us peace of mind - we need to bottom that out.

I look forward to your response,


Kind regards Toadshall

Toadshall wrote:

I wish to say a big thank you on behalf of us all in the freel2 community, the data and photo's you are providing are excellent, highly detailed and hugely valuable, if not concerning.

I don't believe the Q106 could influence in any matter this issue. It's just an firmware update for improving the autobox life and operation.

From people at LR Romania, I've also heard of cam failure cases. But as the number of cars sold in Romania is much smaller than the number sold in Russia, somehow this has passed quieter. And not all participate in forum discussions.

The cam can broke at the connection with the HP pump or there were cases when it broke between cyl1 and cyl2.
The later case is catastrophic, as the cyl1 valves will be hit by the piston, resulting in an engine write-off.

Again, try to read the whole russian thread(s). There you'll find much more photos and comments.

The interior of the pump doesn't look to worn at 100.000 km. Again, none of the pumps were seized.
Below are the pictures of the moving parts. You can see that the both the pistons' foot and the excentric/polygon ring are quite OK. So the fuel does a quite good job at lubricating the internals.
For reference, this is the HP pump:

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

To be fair I'm not surprised cars in Russia are failing more than anywhere else... After being in Moscow recently I can vouch that cars get a hard life. You have to see it to believe it. And I bet fuel won't be as good a quality as ours (america's isn't also) Mine: 2012 Golf GTI Edition 35
Family's: 2009 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Auto, Stornoway

Yorkshire - God's County

Hello Dave,

Prior to retirement, I worked in North Africa - Algeria and Tunisia and Parts of Eastern Europe, away from large towns and frequently a very long way from a Hotel. I am familiar with a rougher edge to everyday life in some of these places, a different way to do things and different raw material qualities such as fuel!

Eastern Europe appears to be a focal point re this camshaft problem, but it could equally be Turkey, North Africa, Southern Africa, India, Australia, New Guinea etc. The question is why have these places not appeared above the parapet? Indeed, why not the rest of the world? It cannot just be a result of a low local fl2 population - unless you say different of course?

In addition, the new updated camshaft design seems to have a larger boss, but the camshaft drive tongue where the wear occurs appears in the photographs as much the same size with the same surface area. I understand the need to displace a large load over the greatest possible area, but I am unclear from the photographs how the updated camshaft achieves this.

Alex do you have access to any dimensions, or an understanding of how the modification and structure of the new cam overcomes the problem.

Kind Regards,

[/b] Toadshall

Hmmmm....better whip my pump out and have a look at the drive peg and the camshaft end! John
07 HSE Narvick Black
Land Rover Series One
Triumph Rocket 111 (sadly gone!)

Hello All,

I tend to shake a problem around in my head a good deal if I feel it warrants it. this one is an example.

Given:

1
We have most reported examples from Eastern Europe, Russia, Ukraine and Romania in particular.

2
The HP fuel pump is driven in line from the end of the camshaft. A number of components are used in the drive interface to ensure accurate alignment of pump and camshaft during assembly

3
Connecting bosses with bolts would be difficult to achieve because of pump alignment and its rigid mounting requirement

4
When camshafts break, the HP fuel pump is not usually found to be also seized

5
The engine, used in many other vehicles throughout the world does not seem to be affected other than in Eastern Europe.

6
The failures appear to be limited to vehicles manufactured before February '08MY when a new camshaft design was introduced.

7
The camshaft is made of cast iron, it is brittle and does not normally propagate cracks before failing, although failure by way of continued percussive impact might.

8
Regulatory pressures from the EU have forced vehicle manufacturers to stress fuel systems ever more in an attempt to reduce emissions. HP pump pressures have been increased by manufacturers. FL2 is now 1800 bar.

A common link to all the above is fuel quality. In Western Europe the de-sulphurisation of all fuels has led to a reduction of fuel lubricity. This is critical on diesel engines, particulary highly stressed ones with their HP fuel pumps running at huge pressures. Lubricity in Western Europe following fuel refinement has been by way of adding complex lubricity additives to the fuel prior to sale at the pump.

I believe the actual failure is by way of ever increasing tortional load demands by the HP pump on the camshaft drive component element. The camshaft fails first because it is brittle. I would not expect the pump to seize in these circumstances, but it probably would eventually if loads could be taken higher.

The link below is a report that includes representatives of Bosch among its authors, the makers of the FL2's HP pump and fuel system.


http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Fuels%20...1-0848.pdf

Any other failures of this kind may be associated with miss-fueling or perhaps water ingress into suppliers fuel tanks


I would welcome "posters" views.


Kind regards, Toadshall

Just to verify,
This is for diesel engines not petrol, correct? Cuatro Por Cuatro