gorjant wrote:

If disabling ABS was a good idea on snow and ice, I suppose LR would made the TR system dampen the ABS when in snow mode (like it does to the DSC in sand mode) but it doesn't . The thing you should do (as I mentioned earlier) is put winter tires which would make better traction and shorter braking distances on snow/ice.

The DSC dampening in sand mode does not in anyway alter the way in which the ABS acts it changes power given and how much the wheels are allowed to spin under acceleration

There is no button to turn off the ABS, what has been previously discussed and what DEF. did was correct. (read on....)

What has been said if you read the post is brake until the ABS acts and then release just slightly till the ABS is not acting.

Your wheels will still spin (no locking up), you will still be able to steer, but your stopping distance is shorter.

The Head Land Rover Experiance tutor at Coniston Hall showed me this on the wet fields which where very wet.

Drive 50mph Brake hard as possible ABS kicks in car came to halt. Take note of position
Reverse again
Drive 50mph Brake hold braking force prior to ABS acting, came to halt note postition
Reverse again Select Sand Mode (due to my question on wether that would aid/water down ABS)
Drive 50mph Brake hold braking force prior to ABS acting, came to halt note postition

The results were

1st Shortest distance - 50mph Brake hold braking force prior to ABS acting
2nd Shortest Distance - 50mph Brake hold braking force prior to ABS acting SAND MODE (very close to 1st place)
3rd "Longest distance" by a couple of car lengths FULL FORCE BRAKING WITH ABS:!:

So unless your knowledge is better than a Full Trained Head Tutor for Land Rover who has shown me the correct procedure. I will continue to use the technique when required.

Obviously everybody has there own opinion and ways of doing things.

Find a wet field/ snowy straight road and try it out for yourself.


DON'T USE THIS ON DRY ROAD  Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

npinks wrote:

The DSC dampening in sand mode does not in anyway alter the way in which the ABS acts it changes power given and how much the wheels are allowed to spin under acceleration

VIKING wrote:

defkalion wrote:

- maybe the vehicle weight plays an important role.

Defkalion, you are quite right about this.

There is put out a general warning to SUV's here in Norway to remember that due to the heavy weight of the SUV's, a longer braking distance is required.

Due to the very good driving-abilities for SUV's on snow and ice, many seem to forget the heavy weight of the car. So actually there is a warning out for SUV's to be extra careful going down hill.

I have always concidered going up hill as a challenge, never down hills. With SUV's it is the other way around. Due to the weight.

So when on ice: Remember you are driving a heavy car, and need more braking distance.

But Muddywheels; Were you speeding a little when colliding into that barn?

Allthough ABS is great, it is just a little help, -not a mean to break the laws of physics. If your speed is too high concidered against the grip the car has on the road, not even the ABS will help you.

30 Mph on a 60Mph road

muddywheels wrote:

30 Mph on a 60Mph road

30 Mph should equal 50 kms/h. Right? Well, if the road is a 60 Mph road (100 kms/h), it does not mean much if it is pure steel-ice. It is the ground-conditions that counts, not the speed-limit.

Anyway, I agree with you. 50 kms/h is not fast. It shouldn't be any problem unless the road is extremely slippery and soalked with soap on top of the ice. Perhaps somebody was trying to wash the ice away?

No, I think perhaps the ABS you had in 1995 were not as good as the ones we have today.

My advice is still to use ABS. By the way, Talked to the Head-instructor on an LRE-center which is not too far away from were I live.

He said he was aware of this discussion going on about ABS vs not ABS, and that particulary within LRE in the UK there was this perception that ABS was not good. He knew about this theory of building up snow in front of the tyres. His view was that that is a little bit theoretical, and would depend much on the structure of the snow.
Snow can be wet, fluffy, dry and shift from day to day. His advice was to trust the ABS.

I guess this is the never-ending-story..... 2008 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Automatic, Caspian Blue, Alpaca, Moon roof, Exclusive pack.

Another video from across the pond to prove the points made by npinks and muddywheels.



ABS can result in longer stopping distances but gives you more control to steer the car (which VIKING mentions in his post).

&NR=1 Without ABS

&NR=1 With ABS



Well guys, I thought I had to put an end to this discussion. So yesterday I contacted my local LRE and put the question to their head-instructor. He was aware of this debate, and knew about the theory of building up snow in front of the tyres, but to him that was a bit theoretical, and he would recomend ABS all the time.

He also recomended me to contact his collegue in Finland (where they also know what snow and ice is), as he was a bit of an expert on the subject. So I did. I sent him an e-mail, quoting from npinks post regarding the tests he did. Here is his reply, and in his reply he is referring to the test npinks is referring to in his post:


As it happens, ABS, even with today’s systems, hardly ever reduces braking distances.



The whole idea, as you know, is to let the wheels turn and hence allow steering while braking. –That literally means altering braking pressures at the wheels, and any alteration takes time to take effect and reduces the time used at the optimal pressure. And that means that the system is compromising stopping distance for control. However, with modern sensors and computing speed, the result is very near perfect (1G of deceleration) on surfaces with good grip.

On loose and slippery surfaces, on the other hand, physics would actually often favour a locked wheel for maximum braking. –It IS a case of forming a wedge in front of the wheel (amongst other issues). Unfortunately the system can’t distinguish between different terrains and alter it’s mode of operation for optimal performance, so the braking distances on loose surfaces are much longer using ABS.

Liability issues in today’s corporate environment will not allow for car manufacturers to install a switch to disengage ABS, so we end up having either or.

Thus, as an ABS system will not lock the wheels, the closest thing to locking them is applying just enough pressure to reach the limit for the beginning of the systems operation (and the start of altering braking pressures) to get the braking distance as short as possible.



In all my years of driving, I’ve never come across a situation of a wall being dropped in front of my car blocking all passages. With me having been warned beforehand and being ready for it, anyway. –That would be a case of straightforward braking distances and what the aforesaid LRE (all correct) demonstration is displaying.

Other than specialist situations (racetrack, rally, off-road racing) I prefer a modern ABS to non-ABS any second. –Especially on the one when something out of ordinary happens in traffic.



Being quite blunt; Looking only at the tires (the usually defining feature for grip/braking distances) people are using in their cars, I would say that that they would be far better off making sure that their vehicles are in good working order rather than talking about hypothetical situations and their outcomes.

Well, he gives npinks credit for his point regarding the test he did. But his advice clearly, is to always use and trust the ABS. -Unless you are a professional driver engaged in rally or similar.

ABS gives you control. Without ABS, you have to trust your luck.

Have we settled this discussion now? 2008 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Automatic, Caspian Blue, Alpaca, Moon roof, Exclusive pack.

I completely agree. In the majotity if not all situations ABS is in anyway better.

I also loved the 30's or more years ago cars, totally different but not applicable nowdays and we must accept electronic, we cannot avoid it anyway.

I was start to think i was making it up

I personally would use ABS all the time and use the brake pressure technique what relevent.

I say it is now laid to bed and if anybody asked the question we should refer to the above post from Viking. Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

VIKING wrote:

.......

[color=blue]As it happens, ABS, even with today’s systems, hardly ever reduces braking distances........


.....In all my years of driving, I’ve never come across a situation of a wall being dropped in front of my car blocking all passages. With me having been warned beforehand and being ready for it, anyway.......

Have we settled this discussion now?

muddywheels wrote:

BBC Top Gear did a test a few years ago and ABS did cut braking distance.

My personal view is that ABS does cut braking distance. But I do not want to argue with the expert when I have asked for his opinion, so I just say; OK.  2008 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Automatic, Caspian Blue, Alpaca, Moon roof, Exclusive pack.