really interesting reading and good points of view/facts although......

i can't believe all this has come from a gobby fella in a vauxhalll senator on asda carpark!!!

Yup... the discussion is developing nicely

npinks, I see your pont. I too can see the end of mankind at the hand of a few mad terrorists or delinquent states. However, I take the view that this is by no means guaranteed. If it happens it happens and in that case my actions now will make no difference. However, what if it doesn't happen... ever? By not taking the right action now to try to improve the environment for the future we might be destroying any chance there might be to improve things for our children and their children.

I really do take your point on board but I am reminded of a joke I heard about God... it went something like this:

I believe in God. Why? Well, if there is a God then believeing in Him means I go to church, I prey and I try to keep the commandments. I then go to Heaven. If there is no God then what have I lost? On the other hand, if I did not believe in God and it turns out He does exists then I am snookered!

The fail safe option is to believe.

A joke (OK, not a very good one!) but it demonstrates my point. You might be right in that we may well destroy ourselves in the next few hundred years in which case nothing we do now matters... but what if we don't? What will we, as a race, be left with if we don't do what we can now to improve matters? Even if we are not responsible for the bulk of global climate change we can still improve matters even by a small amount... surely that is the better option than just assuming oblivian and throwing everything out of the window?

Scrimple, your comment is a popular misconception:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/volcanoes-and-global-warming.htm

There are many more sources of reputable information that scientifically supports this view. Volcanos are a very small player in the global CO2 emissions scenario.

PaulC wrote:

druand wrote:

A useless piece of info on CO2 emissions.
The CO2 emitted producing the concrete for the base of 1 wind turbine pylon takes 25 years of the turbines production (assuming 75% efficiency) to recoup.
The life of a turbine is estimated at 25 years and we are still left with tons of concrete in the ground.

That is interesting... can you point me to the place where that was said? I would love to read about that... Ta.

TrickiDicki wrote:

PaulC wrote:

druand wrote:

A useless piece of info on CO2 emissions.
The CO2 emitted producing the concrete for the base of 1 wind turbine pylon takes 25 years of the turbines production (assuming 75% efficiency) to recoup.
The life of a turbine is estimated at 25 years and we are still left with tons of concrete in the ground.

That is interesting... can you point me to the place where that was said? I would love to read about that... Ta.

My data is ~10 years old but the carbon payback period for wind turbines was 7-9 months.

PaulC wrote:

Andy131... Oh dear... not another CO2 ludite. Not quite a Luddite, but unhappy to take theories as facts, and then base my life around them.

Read the HUGE body of science-based evidence....... I work at an R&D establishment with 30+ scientists most have PHD's, very clever people, not living on the same planet as me let alone the same office. Cycle to work to save the planet then holiday in the Caribbean! I have help with quite a lot of "research" most seems to be combination of guesswork and experimental evidence, the two do not always seem related - hence my scepticism that CO2 and global warming are directly and soley linked. Was told on the first day "if we knew what we were doing it wouldn't be research"


Which part of "Global Climate Change" don't you understand? Manchester? Manchester has nothing to do with it? This is global changes that are happening... some places will get generally warmer, some colder, some wetter and some drier. You cannot look at any single location or any single country and make any kind of judgement about what is happening globally.

--- Sorry Paul you miss the point, Manchester has everything to do with it, Manchester is cold and damp, warmer and dryer would be nice, I am sure there are other places with worse/better weather it's not my problem, certainly not going to change much in my lifetime.


As you can see I really really don't care, the science is all theory, the difference I could make is tiny, compared to the damage industry in places like Brasil and China is doing, and this is small compared to what nature can do. The effects if any will all be here long after I and my sons have passed away.
I do strongly resent paying for some half baked theory - just admit the countries finances are in a mess, tax us all accordingly and let the wierd beards go sobbing about tigers/orangutans/whales, anything that doesn't infringe on my choice to drive a Land Rover. --  Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

I took a flight over parts of Asia earlier this year and it was plainly evident that we can have a significant impact on our planet. Some large islands were almost totally bare, covered in nothing but houses for the humans. How many animal and lant species do you think might have survived. It wasn't just one Island, it was island after island after island. We are lucky here in Oz as it doesn't take us long before we can be out in open spaces, but even then there are all trees left with the exception of National Parks. The farmers mowed them all down "just in case they needed it" in the lead up to legislation banning it! So there's nothing there at all, no trees, no crops, no native animals. If there are no trees, there will be no moisture retained in the soil, which means less humidity and less rain as a consequence.
Don't think that we can't make a difference just because a volcano can emit bad gases or a cyclone smashes things to pieces. Nature is cyclic and is able to repair itself, whereas what we are doing to the planet is linear; it just keeps getting worse and worse.
For my part, I try not to rip the ground to pieces when I go offroading, I don't leave litter, I buy economic vehicles which meet my needs and I use as little energy as I can. It's the sum of the parts that will make a difference. I ordered a FL2 SD4 because it only uses 7litres per 100K. Nothing else that goes beyond a gravel road does that and by retiring my old 4WD (12L/100Klm) I'm saving fuel and reducing emissions!

matt-j wrote:

really interesting reading and good points of view/facts although......

i can't believe all this has come from a gobby fella in a vauxhalll senator on asda carpark!!!

well if you think this is a heated discussion, it's a good job I never mentioned that the gobby fella also said that auto Freelanders are much better than manuals
 For a free country, it does seem pretty expensive these days.

weirdfish wrote:

well if you think this is a heated discussion, it's a good job I never mentioned that the gobby fella also said that auto Freelanders are much better than manuals

Nice one!  Andyfr

This has been a jolly post breakfast read - damning stuff delivered by both sides of the debate. Terrific.

However, global warming is a reality.
The main contributor to that is mankind, not some geological accident or cyclical meteorological calendar or planetary correlation.

There is of course a coterie of folk that are in denial or couldn't care less - fine - except when your house floods don't complain too loudly when the insurers refuse to reinsure or will only do so with an increased premium. Do not complain when your flight is grounded because of "unusual extreme bad weather", or you have no electricity due to power lines collapsing under the weight of ice.

There are scientific reports that were revealed as completely fabricated or manipulated to suit the GW cause. Agreed. But these have thankfully been exposed as the works of a tiny minority whose motivation was self esteem in their peer group and the seduction of personal gain. Disgraceful.

Yet, in whichever camp you reside you cannot escape the fact that pollution of any kind from any source is having an impact upon your daily lives whether you acknowledge it or not. It influences your finances, your health, your politicians , your retailing opportunities , your leisure options, i.e your freedom of choice.

Your inertia will ruin the planet - not a dirty bomb, a volcano, or pollution, or indeed Nostradamus!

Andy131... it seems clear you have made up you mind.

I will just make one last comment that I would like you to think upon... climate change is not a "half-baked theory". In fact, it is the evidence that is showing what is happening... temperature recordings across the world are clearly showing a general rise in temperatures. This is not theory... it is fact because that is what the recordings are showing. Also, it is proven beyond the doubt of most scientists that the cause of this warming is rising CO2 levels. What is very much theory at the moment is that we are the main cause but given the timings of the records of CO2 increase combined with those of the temperature rises it is very likely that we are.

Yes we are but a small part in anything that is happening and yes there is little impact we can have indivdually on things globally... I agree with you there. It need everyone, worldwide to take action, not just you or I. But who is going to start the ball rolling? Someone has to. Alreight, I can see it isn't ever going to be you but someone has to or nothing will change.

All the time we all focus on our own selfishness and greed and only look at our own part of the world instead of looking at the wider picture things will and can only get worse... clearly that doesn't bother you but it bothers me and millions of others. In the scale of things you are right in one big respect... you and I will only be here a relative short period of time but we will be replaced by our children and over time they will have a more enlightened view and perhaps more of them will realise that we are slowly destroying our world. I hope they have enough time to do something about it and don't look back on our generation and curse our ignorance.

Nuff said I think on this topic. Thanks. It has been interesting and thought provoking for me at least. Good to have an in-depth discussion without it turning in to a slanging match

2012 was a good movie to take reference from on climate change, a little OTT but fact based none the less

also I'm sure i saw on TV that we are still classed as leaving the last ice age, so could the rise in temperature not be associated with that, albeit slightly speeded up on fact of the co2 release

back in my geology days, i'm sure they said there would only be a set amount of carbon in the world, this is either held in fossil fuels, trees and the air we breathe and a few other things, so the amount we are releasing is the factor that governs the warming effect. But the fact man (and maybe a few women) are chopping trees down which absorb the carbon back into the earth are been cut down is one of the biggest factors.

one Cargo transporter ships journey across the ocean will put out more pollutants then my car can put out in its lifetime, so a whole load of things need to be address, from how things are sent around the world

I saw an interesting program, not so long ago about a huge experiment, to make a certain type of cloud, which reflects the suns heat back into the atmosphere, basically a fleet of eco, self powered boats sail out, producing tiny water droplets which are lifted up to form the clouds.

Interesting theory, but would it work in the real world, absolutely not!!! Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

My mates and I grew up playing in the vast bushland next to our town and enjoyed the most magical childhood anyone could imagine. We didn't need scateboard parks, pinball parlours, Ipods, Nintendos or any of those things, as nature provided us with more entertainment that we could fit into each day. It's not there any more.

Thought I'd put my 2pennorth in.

This article is easy to read and assimilate.

I don't disagree that the climate is changing, but I disagree with the theory that we humans are entirely to blame for it.


http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

andyfr wrote:

weirdfish wrote:

well if you think this is a heated discussion, it's a good job I never mentioned that the gobby fella also said that auto Freelanders are much better than manuals

Nice one!

Clearly the 4x4 hating, vegaterian mother hubbard knows a good gearbox when he see's one! Freelander 2 TD4 Auto, SE, Narvik Black, Alpaca full leather, Rear Headrest Entertainment System, 6 CD, 18 HSE Wheels, Privicy tints

Yes something is happening, floods, arid areas, temperature extremes, jet stream moving southwards (a classic example in December) etc. Some of the older guys on here will probably remember when we actually had 4 seasons to our annual weather, there are no defined seasons anymore as they now overlap, the flora and fauna are confused, food for the birds and animals are not appearing when most needed, animals coming out of hibernation early.

Third world countries are developing as we did and we are attempting to throttle this development because we have already seen the affects of pollution. This is a mite unfair but as I said before, the increase in population and diminishing food resources will be our downfall, there will be a third world war and I hope I'm not around to see it.

I do my bit as an individual to try and be "green" by not wasting energy, recycle, blah blah blah and am aware we are slowly killing the planet, but I am not taking any drastic measures as an individual and I also don't denounce "green people" for there sometimes OTT actions. We all will take action as we see fit depending on how important it is to us, our children and our conscience. If you don't give a toss then fine, it's your perogative.