Recently, I was working on an event in a remote Scottish field. We had a new Ford Transit van which made it to the gig with virtually no fuel left. We were in the middle of nowhere and I suggested the van probably wouldn't make it to the nearest station. After asking around, a guy turned up in a tractor with about 2 gallon of red diesel. They were just about to tip it in when I stopped them because I'm sure I'd read that some modern Landrover engines had stopped when someone used red diesel. Since Ford once owned Landrover I thought this could also affect the Transit.
My question is, was I scare-mongering? In the end, someone had to drive off, find a station, buy a plastic can and return with a gallon instead of risking it. Did I waste people's time??

I don't think you wasted anybodys time, not sure about the engine but the fuel filter would have been stained red and if the Van was stopped and checked you saved the driver from a large fine Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

Red should be same stuff. Modern tractor engines have similar injector systems as cars, common rail, tier3 etc.

This morning the data screen in my tractor was telling me I was using 33l/hour of the stuff good job the tank holds nearly 400l At work
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"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

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I had people scowling at me and consulting iPhones to see if I was wrong. To be honest, I wasn't sure it would be an issue but if the engine had cut out halfway to the station and the dashboard displayed "Fuel Fault" or something similar, we would have been stranded, and on a tight schedule to boot.
I just seemed to remember a comment on here once about engine trouble due to "misfuelling". Don't know if it's the same or similar engine in a Transit these days?

If they made a tranny that wouldn't run on red most of the builders etc around here wouldn't buy one

Apparently they only get fined £400 for the first offence so they reckon its worth the risk
A local farmer allegedly has more fuel customers on a Sunday morning than the local morrisons..(and no its not me )

In a way its understandable, over tax anything and people will rebel and find a cheaper source At work
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"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

Quote:

If they made a tranny that wouldn't run on red most of the builders etc around here wouldn't buy one

relevant info stolen from a different forum from a farmer who actually knows what he is talking about.


Supply and demand vs. location & quantity will dictate if DERV gets dyed red and the duty clamed back instead of red being delivered in the first place, as Red & DERV cost almost the same to make.

As has been coved many times over the years on this forum there are 3 kinds of red diesel of which only 1 conforms to BS EN 590 (ultra low sulphur city gas oil AKA: city gas oil) which is rated at >CN51 as per DERV, the gas oil (AKA: 35sec) most farmers & plant operators get as well as used in central heating system is rated at >CN46, the lowest grade of red is marine gas oil at >CN35

The higher the CN rating number the shorter the period of time between injection and initiation of combustion which is also known as ignition quality, typically the faster the engine turns or by implication the smaller the engine is the higher the minimum CN must be, as bigger engines that are slower revving have more time for ignition to take place than small high revving units.

The problem is most tractors sold in the EU along with there power rating etc will be quoted using DERV & there factory injection timing will be set for DERV, if you set your injection timing for DERV at >CN51 and you put >CN46 gas oil in it you will lose a bit of power as injection is not taking place at the optimum time, the affects the other way around (set up for CN46 but running on CN51) is much less prominent.

I get ~5% more power on DERV than CN46 gas oil, I also get more MPG & less smoke & will pull a couple more KPH up hills and go further up hills before each gear change, this is because my mog is set-up on DERV and I cannot be bothered to advance the IP timing by 2deg to compensate and because I only use DERV to avoid HMRC issues. At work
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"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

I don't think there's a problem for the engine. Farmers here in Luxembourg are allowed to use heating oil from the home's heater. But only in agricultural engines. If you are checked on street with heating fuel in your car! It will be very expensive.

With my Renault Scénic Diesel I was 2x in a control done by customs agents:

They take about 1 liter diesel from your car, which is checked on place with chemicals in 3 test tubes. 2 other test tubes are being sent to laboratory. If you do have standard Diesel from the station everything is ok and the rest from the 1 liter is put back to your car.

But having heating fuel in your car. Will cost you an arm and leg: About 2500 Euro fine, plus court fees plus the fees to tow off your car, plus the garage who does take apart your engine to clean it.

The chemicals used to test the fuel are so exact that you just need to have one time filled your car with heating fuel, that it can still be detected 100 times later with real Diesel.

Our customs do these checks on trucks every week.

edit: corrected the wrong Euro fine had still Luxembourg Francs in mind … ups Freelander 2 SE 4Td Izmir Blue, Dog cage for Alaskan Malamute, iphone Navigon Navigator

Last edited by cyberhusky on 4th Nov 2009 4:14 pm. Edited 1 time in total

The fine in the UK is quite small for first time offences so many people take the chance. So I am told anyway I have no intention of testing the system . About £400 allegedly.

Also quite often the fine for driving with no car insurance in the UK is less than the insurance would cost so 1000's of people drive uninsured too.


Yet if a fully insured driver with correct tax paid fuel in his tank drives a few miles over the speed limit he is heavily fined  At work
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"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

The diesel is just the same.For tax purposes a dye is added,this can be red,green blue,yellow or any other colour at all,red is useualy the norm in this country.
Be awear that dye is added and cant be removed once added.this is how the customs people can tell if you have paid fuel duty on it or not.If you are caught running duty free fuel on the public roads you can be find very heavey and loose your car.hope this helps.

Ignoring the fuel duty issue, the main problem with 'red' diesel is that as it has low turnover, the cetane rating will be low (cetane is the diesel equivalent of octane for petrol), the cetane rating drops over time so on a lean burn, high revving car / van diesel engine (compared to tractors, however modern) this can potentially cause problems. The other issue is the storage if the fuel, generally farmers store in 205 litre drums, these tend to be in barns etc. where the temperature varies leading to moisture condensation inside the drums, which then sinks to the bottom.... which is where the fuel is drawn from with a typical transfer pump.... leading to 'water in fuel' problems
Personally, I find that high turnover supermarket fuel gives the same or better mpg & performance as moderate to low turnover premium fuels but costs 10p a litre less

From VOSA
If you:
* misuse or supply oil (other than fully duty paid fuel) for use as fuel in a road vehicle
* misuse or supply rebated kerosene for use to propel an excepted vehicle or as fuel in an engine (other than to provide heating) or
* mix any rebated or duty free oil with any oil on which no rebate has been allowed.

A penalty of £250 may be imposed for each offence and the duty rebate recovered.

In all cases, your vehicle (or engine) may be seized and forfeited.

In the more serious cases involving dishonesty criminal action may be taken, and the offender can be fined an unlimited amount or imprisoned for up to seven years, or both.


Red diesel is currently costing around 47p + vat for bulk customers (2000L+) So its not a massive saving in the first place. A biggish saving yes but at a huge risk. I own a big tank of the stuff yet am never tempted to fill the FL2. At work
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"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race