Article in Autoexpress

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/35261...phfIKn3Czw

Jaguar Land Rover is looking into the development of a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle as part of a £73.5million Government funded programme into the automotive sector to help reduce carbon emissions.

Known as Project Zeus, JLR is working on the technology with a number of UK-based partners, including Delta Motorsport, Marelli Automotive Systems and UKBIC.

Best of luck to them with that ...

https://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-c...ll-expert/


and other side of the coin...

https://www.nextgreencar.com/fuelcellcars/ Jules

That's interesting reading, i didn't know all the details on hydrogen, not as good as i thought.
Maybe the government should push LPG more? Common sense isn't very common.
_______________________________
2007 Land Rover Freelander2 I6 hse Auto

jules wrote:

Best of luck to them with that ...
https://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-c...ll-expert/

and other side of the coin...
https://www.nextgreencar.com/fuelcellcars/

Those concerns are still valid.
The concept of metal sponges for hydrogen storage has been around for a long time.

The huge problem for the fuel cell and hydrogen burning ICEs is generating the hydrogen. Its requires an massive amount of energy, which is fine if it can be done entirely through renewable energy sources but we are a long way from that yet.
If you have to rely on fossils fuels to generate the hydrogen than you'll generate less CO2 per mile driven by burning the fossil fuel in the ICE. Of course Ive ignored the hugely damaging air pollution side.

So yes, Im all for fuel cell cars but to my mind without developing a clean method of hydrogen generation its a waste of time.

Interestingly, Wolfgang Ziebart (ex JLR Chief of Engineering called fuel cells “complete nonsense” back in 2016 because of their poor ‘wheel-to-well’ carbon emissions (without renewable energy source) Autocar Nov 2019.

I'd be keen to know what has made JLR change its mind, maybe this:

Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) has said the fuel might be more suitable than battery-electric power for its largest SUVs as it works to cut emissions. “If you’re not careful, you end up with such big batteries [with EVs], you make it so heavy that when you race down the autobahn, the range disappears. So other technologies could come into play, potentially hydrogen,” said Nick Rogers, JLR’s head of engineering. Jules

Work is ongoing looking at hydrogen production from microbial biomass conversion. It’s not there on an industrial scale yet but could in the future provide an environmentally friendly means of hydrogen production. Given the huge environmental cost of battery production and disposal (which always seems to be ignored by the proponents of electric) alternatives such as hydrogen fuel cells definitely need to be explored.

How long ago were electric vehicles being developed with a view to mass marketing, such as is being attempted now.?

How long ago were LPG vehicles being developed, and actually came into general public sales, but was subsequently sunk because the government wasn't getting enough revenue from the LPG consumer market ?

How long ago since the government changed its goal posts on taxation of the latest petrol and diesel vehicles, in order to gain more revenue that they were losing due to the improvements made (DPF, then adblue etc etc)

yes we need to cut emissions, yes we need to find alternate fuel sources for vehicles but it seems that every time the scientists come up with something to keep the government and the environment happier, the goal posts are changed almost as quickly.

Electric vehicles are not suited to everyone, me included and they are way too expensive to purchase plus the infrastructure is nowhere near good enough and is too much of a minefield. I don't fancy getting stranded 100's of miles from home or destination because the charging point doesn't work and my 60k electric car doesn't have the range to go all the way as I could in a EuroVI diesel .

Hydrogen cars are so far off im not even going to think about it, as electric cars are so much in the early stage of commercial uses that they will be soon be gone as well due to costs, VED increases and infrastructure.

ill stick with my gas guzzler V6 EuroV diseasal for as long as I can I think as until the government and the motor industry get their act together and the consumer actually benefits in real terms (environmentally as well as financially) then any other fuel source is just pie in the sky pipe dreams

Aww, c'mon. How hard can it be ? Back in 2007 there was a guy at the Billing Land Rover show peddling his £125 hydrogen fuel cell that he swore would give me 150 miles on nothing but 2 litres of water !! Listened to his 10 minute sales pitch. The "SECRET" the oil companies were protecting at all costs !!
Yeah, right !
He still managed to shift a few kits though

Many valid comments made, but “pie in the sky” no.
Presently hydrogen is made as a byproduct of chemical processes, the most common and cheapest of which is to use natural gas (a fossil fuel) and high temperature steam to produce the hydrogen. The other energies used in the production process may also not be supplied from a “green” sustainable source e.g: electricity produced from nuclear, coal or oil fired power stations. Fortunately hydrogen can be produced from renewable energy sources. Electricity from non-fossil sources: solar photovoltaics, hydroelectric, wind and wave generation. The UK’s national grid is now being fed with electricity produced from some of these sources so hydrogen fuel production can be green.

Hydrogen powered trains have been running in public passenger service since 2016 using eco-green electric to create the hydrogen. Now in 2020 five of the German states have daily hydrogen driven passenger trains in operation. These trains are capable of up to 800kms on one 10 minute refuel. That’s a faster refuel than the equivalent sized diesel multiple unit. Plus the cost of both the fuel and the maintenance of the vehicle’s engine(s) are financially very beneficial to the overall lowering of the operating cost. Trials have commenced in the UK, Holland, Denmark and Sweden. In the USA of all places California has its hydrogen trains on order with Stadler Rail in Switzerland.

The above two paragraphs illustrate that hydrogen as a fuel source is progressing swiftly to attain a zero omission eco footprint and secure its place in a traditional motive power market (trains) against historic fuel choices. Add to those two factors the on-board fuel storage space for hydrogen is less than for diesel, petrol or batteries for the same driven range, and that the weight is significantly less. Therefore to dismiss the viability of hydrogen powered cars or lorries is to simply ignore the progress being made in this field. For once JLR are on the right track.

My Ha'poth worth,

Two issues,
1) hydrogen fuel cells stacks are a right pain to stop / start, the membrane really doesn't like it. So putting them on trains / lorries / buses which can run continuously for many hours is a good application. A yes I know the buses stop frequently, but in reality the system is hybrid, so the fuel cell stack is charging batteries continuously.
2) hydrogen does leak - a lot, for good fuel density it is best stored cryogenically, but thermal loses mean regular venting if the vehicle isn't used for a few days. Stored at pressure the fuel density is too low to give adequate range unless you can afford space for large fuel tanks - remember they are at best 50% efficient.

So there are some very good applications for fuel cell stacks, a car that is used mainly for shortish journeys to work and back, and some long journeys every week or so isn't one of them.

Calling them fuel cells really does get my electrical nose out of joint - a fuel cell develops a couple of volts, you need a stack of them to generate useful voltages (think battery made up of individual cells developing 1-2V each).

Oh and the hydrogen cars are leased - why, because the fuel cell stack manufacturers only give 200hours warranty, they are expected to last at least 10 times that, but duty cycle has a massive effect on life expectancy.
That was the biggest surprise when we bought some for testing. Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

athelstan wrote:

The above two paragraphs illustrate that hydrogen as a fuel source is progressing swiftly to attain a zero omission eco footprint and secure its place in a traditional motive power market (trains) against historic fuel choices. Add to those two factors the on-board fuel storage space for hydrogen is less than for diesel, petrol or batteries for the same driven range, and that the weight is significantly less. Therefore to dismiss the viability of hydrogen powered cars or lorries is to simply ignore the progress being made in this field. For once JLR are on the right track.

im not dismissing them by any stretch, I know the theory works and is being used in certain environments. But IMO as a viable fuel source for everyday cars to replace ICE and electric cars, then its a long long long long way off in real terms. Again IMO only, we are at least 50 years away from seeing mass production hydrogen powered cars.

Really JLR should be focusing more effort on producing affordable, usable, sustainable electric power plants for their cars and leave the hydrogen research to the Japanese who are already way ahead in the electric/hybrid world. JLR will always play catch up under their current business strategy, just look how far behind they were in introducing decent LED headlights..... how many years behind the likes of Audi ?

Sir Jim Ratcliffe announces that his new Grenadier will launch an Electric Hydrogen hybrid version.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53238512

Fuel cell

The problem with batteries is they are heavy (weight), they are heavy on precious metals, they are difficult to recycle and difficult to manufacture with a shedload of energy being needed to make them in the first place, so no, batteries are not "GREEN" they are a blight on the environment oh and they don't last long before needing to be replaced.

I think it right that manufacturers explore alternative sources of energy, maybe a space capsule capable of harvesting precious metals or gasses from other planets could be a way forward, after all, we spend a fortune moving fuels around the planet so why not explore that option as well.  MY2014 SD4 XS
Ipanema Sand

MY10 TD4-e GS Manual
Lago Grey Now retired after 8 trouble free years

I think that the hydrogen fuel cell (or even methanol fuel cell) would be best used as a emergency top up supply installed in a medium range PHEV vehicle.
I would think 10 - 15kw unit would keep the battery topped up when on longer journeys beyond the normal daily mains electric charge. I think 15kw (20hp) is about half the average power needed used by a car.

The original BMW3i range extender had the right idea, just substitute the small petrol generator for a fuel cell.

That way most journeys would be made on the more efficient mass generated mains electricity.

Government should start taxing by mile driven and drop fuel duties to give a level playing field. FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 77k+ miles) (MY2015)
Metro in its 11th Year of (Extended) LR Warranty / Full LR Service History
(Expensive, but Trouble/Worry free - hopefully?)