Thanks for that info, however it's not flagging any DTCs. I think they've been misled by the failing starter and, despite my protests otherwise, they've just stubbornly thought that was the cause.

R Paterson,

It's no problem.

The first two picture are for the software upgrade.

The pictures after that are a separate communication from Land Rover dealing with the wiring for the fuel pump etc.


Also take a look at this post

http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic27535-15.html

in the post is information about the fuel pump operation

Quote

Low Current connections

- ECU to Fuel pump module - I think this is just a CAN bus digital signal maybe Alex would know for sure

- Fuel Pressure sensor to ECU - I think that this is an Analog signal


High Current Connection (to power the fuel pump)

- Relay in the fuse box under the hood

- Fuse in passenger compartment front passenger foot area

- Cable to fuel pump module

- Ground connection for fuel pump module



If it was me I would focus on the high current connections the reason being that the Technicians that you have looking at it are focused on the low current side.

For me personally I replace the Relays that go to the fuel pump and I replaced all of the fuses.

I did this because I wanted to make sure that I didn't have a significant Voltage drop that was causing problem with one of the modules.

In your post you indicated that the repair center was concerned that the old starter could cause the voltage to drop to a low level during cranking and cause problem with the electronics. I completely agree with this.

This post shows which parts I changed when I was having starting difficulty

http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic25874.html


Note: the root cause of my starting issue was an old battery and leaving the key docked (we already covered that)

The new fuses and the relays and the fuse buddy to measure the current were not expensive at all.

Good luck

Paul

They did say that the battery was a on the edge of being suspect. I'm just wary of them taking the car back in and it not displaying the issue line during the ten days they had. I'm very tempted to give it to them and tell them just to do the software update and try and get it for free seeing as I didn't actually need the starter.

You know how sometimes you go to the doctor and say 'i think I have X' age they test you for A, B and C etc first coz they're the experts? That's kinda what I feel like now. I told them I thought it was the software... I've asked them to document what diagnostics they've carried out so far as I strongly suspect they've not looked at fuel pressure etc like they're supposed to when dealing with a reported hot start issue!

I've read your info about the fuse buddy etc, I may end up going down that road.

They did say that the battery was a on the edge of being suspect. I'm just wary of them taking the car back in and it not displaying the issue line during the ten days they had. I'm very tempted to give it to them and tell them just to do the software update and try and get it for free seeing as I didn't actually need the starter.

You know how sometimes you go to the doctor and say 'i think I have X' age they test you for A, B and C etc first coz they're the experts? That's kinda what I feel like now. I told them I thought it was the software... I've asked them to document what diagnostics they've carried out so far as I strongly suspect they've not looked at fuel pressure etc like they're supposed to when dealing with a reported hot start issue!

I've read your info about the fuse buddy etc, I may end up going down that road.

R Paterson

I did have a random thought that might be useful

Are any of your heat shields missing?

The heat from the catalytic converters is likely boiling the petrol in the lines.

This is why you can start it later once it cools.

Anything that causes the converter to run hot will also make your problem worse.


Good luck

Paul

PS if you get the fuse buddy you will be able to tell if the fuel pump is running when you start the motor

Really? Wow, I've never know heatshields to be anything more than decoration. I'll take a look tonight, I know that it had seen some off-road action in a previous life...

R Paterson

Please confirm that the following information is accurate (this is what I've gathered from your posts)

1. The problem is a Hot Re-Start only problem - it always starts cold

2. The problem only occurs if you've been driving for 10 minutes or more - never happens if you move it a short distance and then you move it back (with a restart)

3. The problem only occurs if you let it heat soak for 15 minutes but not past 2 hours - for example it restarts fine when you go to the petrol station and you hot restart after 10 minutes


To summarize your drive cycle that causes the problem is

A. Drive for 10 minutes minimum

B. Stop vehicle and allow to hot soak for a minimum of 15 minutes

C. Attempt to restart after 15 minute but before 2 hours


The reason that I am detailing it this way is because I almost never do A, B, and C.



If what I wrote above is correct here is my best guess for what is happening

- the fuel in the lines is being turned into vapor due to the heat

- the fuel vapor is pushing out the liquid fuel from the fuel line (back into the tank)

- due to the lines being empty (filled with vapor instead of liquid) the fuel pump isn't supplying enough liquid fuel to injectors and the engine won't start



What could cause this

- a leaking check valve in the fuel line could allow the vapor to push out the liquid fuel (back into the tank)

- excessive heat from a really hot catalytic converter could be changing the fuel into Vapor and pushing the liquid fuel into the tank past the pressure relief valve



Why is this happening

- return-less fuel system - this is the price you pay for progress, new problems that did not occur with the old style fuel system that had a regulator and a return line


What would I do if this were happening to me

1. Confirm that the fuel pump is turning on when I get the hot restart problem. (the fuse buddy will show this, the current needs to be about 5 amps if its close to zero or zero then the pump isn't running)

2. Measure the fuel pressure at the rail using a code reader that can check the PIDs

- I did this and my fuel pressure actually went up after I shutdown (likely due to heat soak)



If the fuel pressure is low and the pump doesn't run then..... update software

If the fuel pressure is high and the pump doesn't run then ..... carefully relieve the pressure and try again

If the fuel pressure is low and the pump runs then ..... look for source of hot soak

If the fuel pressure is high and the pump runs then ..... look for source of hot soak


Good Luck

Paul

Hi Paul, yes that's pretty much what happens. We find that if the car has had a 'decent' run them it will restart right away or within 5-10 mins but I'd we're away for around 30 minutes or so then the engine will need to have been stopped for perhaps 45 minutes on total before it will restart. There was one occasion, on a hotter day, that it didn't restart after the shorter period but that just happened once.
I didn't get a chance to investigate your heatshields suggestion last night but I'll endevour to tonight and I'll need to get a fuse buddy ordered!
Thanks again.

Well the heatshields are all present and correct. I see that the petrol lines run along the left hand of the underside and can appreciate that missing shields could pose a problem.
Oh well, my next stop this evening is Amazon...

R Paterson,

A missing heat shield would have been an easy fix.

I'll try to look at my fuel system this weekend to see if I can uncover other possible faults

Good Luck

Paul

I've started a thread on here asking what the hot soak SSM does, but despite almost 100 views nobody has replied yet. I've also emailed Landrover themselves asking the same question.
I'm hoping that the SSM will cure it, but I'm waiting to hear what diagnostics the garage did when they recently had it in for over a week before I take it back to them. As they've needlessly changed the starter, I'm going to try and get them to do the update FOC...