Mav71 wrote:

It was a coincidence that it came on after running 1/2 a tank of cheap French Supermarket fuel, as there was decent stuff at the time.

Mav71 wrote:

I will add some EGR cleaner. But she has run constantly on V Power diesel since August 2007 with th exception of the half a tank of French !

chrisdeeming wrote:

probably that french supermarket fuel that mav71 had

There only a limited number of refineries so basically the fuel all comes from the same place, additives are added to make 'super' fuels. these work out pricey as the govt then adds fuel duty to the cost of the additive. more important in my mind is the way individual garages stores the fuel.
Like a good pub the 'fuel' will be cleaner and fresher if the pump is kept busy. many local pubs have terrible beer on a Friday night but after a weekend of hard drinking the beer tastes great on Monday. One of lifes inequalities.

So buy fuel from a busy garage (supermarket) work Saturdays and take Tuesdays off work.

Also if you live rurally and have a small local garage be sure to use it or it it will close then you will have to drive miles simply to fuel up

If you want additives buy them yourself and add at your leisure, otherwise its just like gin and tonic in a can, tastes inferior and costs more. At work
At home

"I can't always believe facts I read on the web" - Charles Dickens

winner by default of the tractor vs caravan race

My opinion is that there is some truth to the good fuel/bad fuel argument from different retailers.

BP and Shell arguably have the best fuel on the market, a friend of mine at BP tells me they make the least on a litre of fuel out of anyone cost wise. In my experience, standard BP diesel ran better in my Leon than supermarket diesel. The reason I bring the Leon into this is because it was an early adopter of the dreaded DPF, and it would go into forced regen mode quicker on the supermarket stuff. However, the car never felt rough or underpowered using the supermarket fuel.

The case is baked up with the FL. Ours is pre-dpf so no clogging issues. However, it does smoke a little more with supermarket stuff. But again, no driveability, smoothness issues.

What made a big difference in the Leon was adding Millers diesel additive every tankful. The FL is smoother when I run a tank of it through every so often too.

I'd say that there is a marginal difference in the fuel. However, if someone is having an issue after changing fuel supplier, I'd put it down to a bad batch of fuel from that supplier. I've used french supermarket fuel and all is fine. One of them even uses BP fuel according to the stickers on the pumps. Mine: 2012 Golf GTI Edition 35
Family's: 2009 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Auto, Stornoway

Yorkshire - God's County

Technical standards are complex things. Each parameter within the standard is accorded a working tolerance range and European diesel fuel has quite a number:


http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/fuel_automotive.php

It is unsurprising that there will be some variation, nationally and pan European. Then there are the premium fuels such as BP Ultimate. Finally we have bio fuel being added as a percentage to mineral diesel fuel.

Diesel fuel lubricity is becoming an ever more complex problem since the removal of sulphur - a natural lubricity agent. fuel injection pressures are now around 1800 bar (26100 psi) which puts huge demands on a fuel pump common rail system whose only lubricant is the fuel passing through it. Injection pressures in the 1960's were around 14 - 16 bar.

I guess modern diesels can be considered temperamental thorobreds now.

Regards, Toadshall

Big Dave wrote:

a friend of mine at BP tells me they make the least on a litre of fuel out of anyone cost wise.

Very timely discussion on dieselvpetrol in my case. Points noted on the various blends etc. Dead right the turbo diesel is a highly strung beast these days.

I am heading to Santiago Chile tomorrow to look for a fairly recent Freelander 2, and I'm probably going to shy away from diesel and go for the i6. Gawd awfull consumption I know, but I'm hoping my choice will help keep it out of the LR workshop 1000km away.

I do love flooring a good TD though and hanging on that wonderful torque. Freelander 1 HSE TD4 Manual in Falklands
Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Auto in Chile

No I am not over reacting Alex. The company I work for deals in all industries from car paint plants, to quarries, chemical, food and so on, including refineries, which are a big big part of what we do.

Many supermarkets buy their fuel from non EU refineries and are a lower grade than your shell's and BP's etc. before anyone states that BP supply Sainsbury, they don't. BP are used to purely distribute fuel to the different Sainsbury locations.

I have done back to back tests with Morrisons vs Shell in a 1.9 CDTi Vectra a few years back. On the rolling road the car produced 6.8bhp less on Morrisons than normal shell and the car smoked a lot more on the cheap stuff and mpg was as much as 3pmg lower.

So no I am not over reacting and supermarket fuel and French supermarket fuel is crap. Freelander 2 HSE Lux 2013MY - Barolo Black with Ivory Leather. Alpine DVD - Privacy -Evoque 20" Dynamic Wheels and more to come.........

Guy's,

Your arguments are valuable and relevant to the debate. Often, the problem for each of us, is supporting these viewpoints with quality data and unimpeachable facts. That is frequently difficult to achieve.

Here is my twopence worth – to vary an Alex expression!

In the past twenty five years, the science and engineering of both diesel and petrol engines has changed radically in many area's:

• Engine tolerances
• Fuel injection pressures, diesel
• Direct, rather than indirect combustion
• Materials - Alloys
• Materials - Plastics
• Metal coatings - low friction
• Metal coatings - corrosion protection
• Electronic control

Add to this list lubricant engineering and fuel science and the 8 valve 4 cylinder engine of 20 years ago looks old hat. High output 4 cylinder engines of today are acutely sensitive to fuel engineering and infrequent maintenance, providing plenty of scope for an uninformed Joe Bloggs (owner) to pick up a trail of woes.

Hydrocarbon fuel science has been with us for a long time, mostly beneficial, but occasionally less so. The Americans with there technology and refining skills bought 100 plus octane fuel to the RAF during 39'-45', which enabled aero engines to produce higher outputs whilst maintaining mechanical integrity. In the early 1960's-1970's Shells ICA – Ignition Control Additive forecourt petrol had a chequered history.

The key issue regarding diesel and petrol quality today is the science driven supporting additive package, the raw ingredients and its formulation (In western Europe) being the same. Cheaper fuels have less of it, more expensive fuel the complete works. Human nature is to keep running costs down, and expensive fuel to many appears as money literally going up in smoke.

The best fuel additive packages provide the ultimate performance to:

• Give the best lubrication to pumps and injectors operating at around 1800 bar
• Provide cleanliness to valves, combustion chambers and injectors
• Provide an emissions reduction
• Provide optimum thermal efficiency

Combined the above will improve a vehicles fuel consumption if it is driven say at a constant 70 mph - 112.6 kph, but not significantly if speeds are lower and variable. An improvement in the engines thermal efficiency is achieved by the fuels cleaning process in combustion which takes time to achieve.

Well, is the best fuel worth using? Well for me yes it is – because in its lubrication ability alone it provides me with piece of mind when I look at those failed camshafts in Alex Pescaru's article – link below. 1800 bar for those familiar with pressure and friction, is mammoth!

http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic10702.html Toadshall

I will chuck in my two pence worth all my LRs have run fine on supermarket diesel with no problems at all, but my Ford Focus smokes like a pig on it so now only use BP or Esso etc.

Since French fuel was mentioned at the start - the BP garage I often use in Calais has different prices for truck fuel and "normal" fuel. I assume that the truck fuel is more basic, and that may be what the French supermarkets are selling. Strangely the "normal" French BP smells of perfume - must have different additives to the English version!