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BossBob



Member Since: 30 Sep 2010
Location: Bristol
Posts: 1402

England 2007 Freelander 2 TD4 GS Manual Baltic Blue

The .54v difference between old battery and new battery wouldn’t be a problem with older cars without all the sensors and processors that modern cars contain.

Post #446689 21st Dec 2024 8:40 am
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IanMetro



Member Since: 11 Sep 2017
Location: Somerset BS21
Posts: 3157

United Kingdom 2014 Freelander 2 SD4 Metropolis LE Auto Fuji White

Are you sure that the Starter Motor is being energised, if so it must be a '12v Battery to Starter' poor connection. If not, it is in Start Procedure chain of actions. The forum has, on very rare occasions, had poor/damaged wiring/connector problems in the starter command chain. (They can be difficult to diagnose and repair)

Below is the Start Procedure from the Repair Manual, but I can't see anything that is obviously temperature related.

[i] PRINCIPLES OF OPERATION

Starting Process

The ECM will only allow engine crank, spark and injector functions when the following conditions are met:

A hardwired Park/Neutral signal is received from the Transmission Control Module (TCM)
A hardwired ignition signal is received from the CJB
A hardwired crank request signal is received from the CJB
Encrypted data exchange between the instrument cluster and the ECM is verified.

Before the CJB will send the hardwired ignition signal, it must satisfactorily complete the following:

Exchange encrypted data with the start control module to validate the remote handset.

Additionally, before the CJB will send the hardwired crank request signal it must receive the following signals:

Brake signal from the speed control inhibit switch
Hardwired transmission in Park (P) or Neutral (N) signal from the selector lever assembly.

With the remote handset inserted in the start control module and the stop/start button is pressed, the start control module issues battery voltage high signal on the LIN bus connection to the CJB and the fuel pump is run for 2 seconds to prime the fuel system. The CJB uses this signal together with the stop lamp switch signal and issues a crank request message on the high speed CAN bus to the ECM.

The ECM, on receipt of the crank request message, then provides a power and ground supply to the starter relay in the BJB, closing the relay contacts. Battery voltage is supplied via a fuse through the starter relay and is passed to the starter motor solenoid coil. The coil is energized, closing the solenoid contacts and allowing a fuse battery voltage supply direct from the battery to operate the starter motor and crank the engine and simultaneously switch the fuel pump on.

The ECM operates the starter motor until the engine starts which is determined by the engine speed exceeding a pre-determined value.

Auto Start

The ECM has an auto start function which allows the engine to continue cranking if the stop/start button is released. The starter motor will operate until the engine starts or a pre-determined period of time has elapsed which is based on engine coolant temperature. Low engine coolant temperatures allow longer crank times. If the engine does not rotate or the engine speed is low, the ECM removes the power supply and ground from the starter relay stopping the crank process.

Start Prevention

Operation of the starter motor will not be allowed or will be interrupted if:
the engine is running and the engine speed has exceeded a predetermined speed
the encrypted data exchange between the instrument cluster, ECM, CJB and start control module has failed to identify the remote handset
the gear selector lever is not in the park 'P' or neutral 'N' position. The signal is determined from a signal from the TCM and also the transmission mounted position switch the brake pedal is not pressed.[i]


Click image to enlarge
 FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 77k+ miles) (MY2015)
Metro in its 11th Year of (Extended) LR Warranty / Full LR Service History
(Expensive, but Trouble/Worry free - hopefully?)

Last edited by IanMetro on 21st Dec 2024 7:36 pm. Edited 1 time in total

Post #446694 21st Dec 2024 5:42 pm
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jenks1950



Member Since: 20 Apr 2013
Location: Stevenage
Posts: 260

England 2013 Freelander 2 SD4 XS Auto Santorini Black

This couldn't be the old dodgy solenoid contact problem could it??
You can repair the solenoid or replace the entire starter. It plagued me for years before it finally failed completely and was then easy to diagnose

My symptom was intermittent. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. You need to read the whole thread to get the full story Anyway, just a thought

Steve

https://www.freel2.com/forum/topic36248.html

Post #446695 21st Dec 2024 6:47 pm
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Badger51



Member Since: 01 Mar 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour
Posts: 969

Australia 

@jenks1950

We are talking about the i6 petrol engine here, which uses a totally different starter to the diesel. However, I appreciate that that doesn’t mean they can’t/won’t fail for the same reason.

From memory, I don’t remember other i6 owners complaining about the starter/solenoid, but of course there aren’t that many of them on the forum, when compared to diesel owners. (Now Sold). 2008 Freelander 2 (Nazca Sand) SE TD4 Auto. Statutory write off & on WOVR for hail damage but still road legal.
171037Km as of 09/05/22
Superchips Bluefin Flash
Nanocom Evo II (also sold)

Post #446697 22nd Dec 2024 7:27 am
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 5062

United Kingdom 2014 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

At the OP.

Sorry just realised were talking about a petrol i6.


You need to work logically to find the problem and eliminate parts found to be OK from the search.
I'd start with the starter motor and solenoid.

page 1076 onwards in the free JLR workshop manual - gives list of possible faults to work from.

Have you checked the condition of the starter motor connections - they need to be clean and all corrosion sanded off fthe copper contacting surfaces.

Have you tried energising the solenoid and starter directly with a jump lead from the battery positive terminal ? Jules

Post #446703 22nd Dec 2024 11:31 am
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 5062

United Kingdom 2014 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

Badger51 wrote:
@jenks1950

We are talking about the i6 petrol engine here, which uses a totally different starter to the diesel. However, I appreciate that that doesn’t mean they can’t/won’t fail for the same reason.

From memory, I don’t remember other i6 owners complaining about the starter/solenoid, but of course there aren’t that many of them on the forum, when compared to diesel owners.


I know little of the I6 but the starter is still uses a pre-engaging solenoid

"OVERVIEW
The starter motor rated at 1.4 kW uses permanent magnets instead of field windings to provide a low-weight starter
motor; with the use of planetary gears to deliver a good torque to weight ratio.
The starter relay is energized by a signal from the engine control module (ECM) when the ignition is in engine crank mode.
The ECM checks that a valid code has been received before granting the engine crank mode request. When the request is
granted the starter relay energizes the starter solenoid to engage the starter motor's pinion with the flexplate's ring gear.
Once the engine has started and engine speed exceeds starter motor speed the pinion disengages to prevent
over-cranking of the starter motor.
The electrical power for starter operation is supplied via a cable connected directly from the battery positive terminal to
the solenoid."
 Jules

Post #446704 22nd Dec 2024 11:38 am
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p_gill



Member Since: 06 Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1245

United States 2008 Freelander 2 i6 SE Auto Tambora Flame

Badger51 wrote:
@jenks1950

We are talking about the i6 petrol engine here, which uses a totally different starter to the diesel. However, I appreciate that that doesn’t mean they can’t/won’t fail for the same reason.

From memory, I don’t remember other i6 owners complaining about the starter/solenoid, but of course there aren’t that many of them on the forum, when compared to diesel owners.



Less common repairs
I. Starter motor - typically fails at 100,000 miles or 10 years

https://www.freel2.com/forum/topic32504.html


I replaced my Starter at about 10 years for my 2008 3.2

The Volvo owner with the same 3.2 seem to get more life from their starter. My memory says that Bosch has a different part number for Land Rover than Volvo. I can't prove but I suspect that any difference would be due to water proofing (i.e. Wading depth). A Volvo S80 isn't rated for the amount of water that the LR2 can handle (assuming the check valve in the air box is working)


Good luck

Paul

Post #446713 22nd Dec 2024 8:53 pm
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Badger51



Member Since: 01 Mar 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour
Posts: 969

Australia 

Thanks for that Paul, did you strip the old starter to see what was wrong? (Now Sold). 2008 Freelander 2 (Nazca Sand) SE TD4 Auto. Statutory write off & on WOVR for hail damage but still road legal.
171037Km as of 09/05/22
Superchips Bluefin Flash
Nanocom Evo II (also sold)

Post #446715 22nd Dec 2024 8:55 pm
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p_gill



Member Since: 06 Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1245

United States 2008 Freelander 2 i6 SE Auto Tambora Flame

Very good comments from everyone here on FREEL2.

I tried to get the person that created this thread to think in terms of.

- Low power communication and safety interlocks

vs.

- High power circuits to engage the starter

When my Daughter had parked the LR2 one time it wasn't recognizing the signal from the Transmission module for Park and the starter would not engage. I walked her thru the steps to get the transmission into Neutral and the 3.2 fired up immediately.

If you get the Transmission into Neutral then you have satisfied all of the Low Power requirement for starting. Any failure at this point is very likely due to a high power component. (Starter relay Fuse, Starter relay, Starter Solenoid)

I did recommend starting from Neutral but that recommendation was ignored.

I've done what I could

Take care

Paul

Post #446716 22nd Dec 2024 9:05 pm
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p_gill



Member Since: 06 Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1245

United States 2008 Freelander 2 i6 SE Auto Tambora Flame

Badger51 wrote:
Thanks for that Paul, did you strip the old starter to see what was wrong?


Unfortunately I did not.

Life/work kept me too busy 7 years ago so I never did a failure analysis.

Note: the solenoid would not even make a click when powered directly.

Thanks

Paul

Note: I bough a new starter and paid 1/3 of what Land Rover would have charged me at the main dealer's parts counter. Not to mention what if would have cost in Labor.

Post #446717 22nd Dec 2024 9:20 pm
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Marcus97



Member Since: 14 Dec 2024
Location: Montreal
Posts: 10

Canada 

p_gill wrote:
Very good comments from everyone here on FREEL2.

I tried to get the person that created this thread to think in terms of.

- Low power communication and safety interlocks

vs.

- High power circuits to engage the starter

When my Daughter had parked the LR2 one time it wasn't recognizing the signal from the Transmission module for Park and the starter would not engage. I walked her thru the steps to get the transmission into Neutral and the 3.2 fired up immediately.

If you get the Transmission into Neutral then you have satisfied all of the Low Power requirement for starting. Any failure at this point is very likely due to a high power component. (Starter relay Fuse, Starter relay, Starter Solenoid)

I did recommend starting from Neutral but that recommendation was ignored.

I've done what I could

Take care

Paul


Sorry p_gill, I didn't quite understand your comment about trying to start from neutral.

I can shift from park to neutral with the ignition on, irrespective of whether the engine wants to turn over or not.

I think it's worth mentioning that I can hear the starter make a kind of soft thud when I try to turn over, and then the vehicle seems to lose power as if I had turned off the ignition. Holding the start button (no food on brake) brings the vehicle back to life, whereupon I can try again.

It sounds (I known very little about mechanics) like the starter is frozen. Is that even possible? Or simply not getting sufficient power to overcome the friction of the motor?

Post #446720 23rd Dec 2024 2:29 am
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Marcus97



Member Since: 14 Dec 2024
Location: Montreal
Posts: 10

Canada 

IanMetro wrote:
Are you sure that the Starter Motor is being energised, if so it must be a '12v Battery to Starter' poor connection.

If the engine does not rotate or the engine speed is low, the ECM removes the power supply and ground from the starter relay stopping the crank process.


I'm not sure of anything, so please let me know your thoughts:
When I try to turn over the engine, I hear a kind of soft thud, which I assume (again, I know very little) is the starter attempting to move.

Could a combination of cold temperatures (-10c) and poor lubrication (I'm past due on an oil change) be enough cause the ECM to cut power to the starter?

Post #446721 23rd Dec 2024 2:41 am
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Marcus97



Member Since: 14 Dec 2024
Location: Montreal
Posts: 10

Canada 

jules wrote:
At the OP.

Have you tried energising the solenoid and starter directly with a jump lead from the battery positive terminal ?


That's not something I'd feel comfortable trying myself...I think I'll just have to bring this to my mechanic tomorrow.

Post #446722 23rd Dec 2024 2:54 am
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